Clutch basket - what does it all mean Basil?

[legaleli]

OK... I've got new springs, new friction plates and new steels. I also managed to buy the Shell Rotella oil that Rustybronco suggested.

I popped off the clutch cover last night and took out all the plates including the last steel that is behind the "piano wire" clip. I was performing a visual inspection because my clutch has a noise in it and I figured that I would shake a few parts and spin a few parts and have a good look.

I have three inquiries:

In the picture below I have what I call the "outer basket" marked as #2. The large gear behind is #1.

Query #1 There is some "play" in the outer basket and the gear when I try to wiggle them. They move in and out together as if on a bearing, and they move about 1/2 a millimeter in and out (together) - it is noticeable. There is also some lateral play in them - that is I can not only pull them in and out a little bit, but one side will move in while the other moves out a small amount as well (they move on at least 2 axes).

Query #2 #1 gear appears to be connected to the motor through a series of gears. If I grab a hold of outer basket #2 with my hands and attempt to turn it, it WILL turn slightly and independent of gear #1 - but only 5 degrees or maybe less - that is, it seems as if #1 and #2 are not connected - it this normal

Query#3 What should I do?

 

[Nessism]

For one thing, it's not automatically necessary to change all the clutch drive/driven plates - measuring them first could save you a bunch of money. Most common reason for clutch slipage is worn springs which are quite cheap.

Regarding the play you are experiencing, the number one problem with these GS clutches is the large nut in the center tends to come loose. Please check that first. Second, the spring cushion mechanism between the outer basket and the large gear develops slop. If you remove that large nut and remove the basket you will see what I'm referring to. You can repair this yourself by shimming the springs but some members around here till tell you to rebuild the clutch hub with a heavy duty backing plate and springs. Check this link for more details... http://www.theflyingbanana.com/clutchhub.htm I did the spring shimming on one hub and it's worked fine and was cheap. Also, buying a HD hub nut is recommended - either an 1150 nut or one from a place like APE.

 

[legaleli]

For one thing, it's not automatically necessary to change all the clutch drive/driven plates - measuring them first could save you a bunch of money. Most common reason for clutch slipage is worn springs which are quite cheap.

Regarding the play you are experiencing, the number one problem with these GS clutches is the large nut in the center tends to come loose. Please check that first. Second, the spring cushion mechanism between the outer basket and the large gear develops slop. If you remove that large nut and remove the basket you will see what I'm referring to. You can repair this yourself by shimming the springs but some members around here till tell you to rebuild the clutch hub with a heavy duty backing plate and springs. Check this link for more details... http://www.theflyingbanana.com/clutchhub.htm I did the spring shimming on one hub and it's worked fine and was cheap. Also, buying a HD hub nut is recommended - either an 1150 nut or one from a place like APE.

Nessism - again I owe you a debt of gratitude and then some! I will remove the large nut and have a look!

Concerning the clutch plates - I tried replacing the springs and I roughed up the steels - but it still slipped - it might have been the oil... in any event now I have new ones and they definitely have WAY more fiber than the old ones. I got new steels just to be sure... only another $50 bucks.

I don't know why - but I really enjoy working on this bike. It's calming.

 

[legaleli]

Interesting guts...

Interesting guts...

Took it all apart last night. I see how the whole thing comes together - and the manuals on Bikecliff's site are indispensable for getting the job done right. The bearings seemed fine, and the "play" or tolerances between the basket and the post should not be a problem.

The springs on the back of the basket were loose in their housing - but that is probably the result of 30 years of their existence. I don't know if I should look for another basket, or look to get mine refurbished... but either way - it's a question for my winter tear down.

The best thing about this, other than having a clutch that will (hopefully) work well for the season (I'll find out tonight when I put oil back in and give her s test ride), is that I have seen the entire inside of my clutch housing and the gears and bearings right back to the crankcase and everything looks good - gears are all in good condition, and everything is torqued to spec - not if I hear any noises from the clutch... I know it's just the character of the bike... or something not mechanically critical to address THIS riding season!

 

[rustybronco]

Eli, stop worrying. she'll take all the abuse you can throw at it.
you've already changed the rear spline correct?

 

[legaleli]

Eli, stop worrying. she'll take all the abuse you can throw at it.
you've already changed the rear spline correct?

JHillier and I inspected the rear spline and it was perfect. We traced that issue to the bevel gear shaft - and that has been corrected!

I'm beginning to understand how well these bikes are engineered both in how they work, and how easy it is to work on them!

Maybe my "worrying" is subconsciously all about trying to find new ways to take my bike apart! I REALLY am enjoying the whole maintenance thing. Tonight, however, I'm going to enjoy breaking in my new clutch!

 

[Guest]

 

[legaleli]

Whoa! That's for this winter's project! Very heavy duty... very NiCe!

 

[Rick65Cat]

Note the 3 welds? Thats what the guys that I knew did to their clutches. The big GS's back in '78 '79 would wear from hard launching....The rivets holding the gear to the basket would loosen and result in "chatter" when the engine was at idle. Welding them up tightened everything back up.

QUOTE - ***Query #2 #1 gear appears to be connected to the motor through a series of gears. If I grab a hold of outer basket #2 with my hands and attempt to turn it, it WILL turn slightly and independent of gear #1 - but only 5 degrees or maybe less - that is, it seems as if #1 and #2 are not connected - it this normal***

You mention "rotational" slop of some amount. There should be NO play between basket #2 and gear #1 See my note above about the welds.

 

[legaleli]

Note the 3 welds? Thats what the guys that I knew did to their clutches. The big GS's back in '78 '79 would wear from hard launching....The rivets holding the gear to the basket would loosen and result in "chatter" when the engine was at idle. Welding them up tightened everything back up.

QUOTE - ***Query #2 #1 gear appears to be connected to the motor through a series of gears. If I grab a hold of outer basket #2 with my hands and attempt to turn it, it WILL turn slightly and independent of gear #1 - but only 5 degrees or maybe less - that is, it seems as if #1 and #2 are not connected - it this normal***

You mention "rotational" slop of some amount. There should be NO play between basket #2 and gear #1 See my note above about the welds.

It looks like my clutch is coming apart one more time!

 

[legaleli]

Note the 3 welds? Thats what the guys that I knew did to their clutches. The big GS's back in '78 '79 would wear from hard launching....The rivets holding the gear to the basket would loosen and result in "chatter" when the engine was at idle. Welding them up tightened everything back up.

QUOTE - ***Query #2 #1 gear appears to be connected to the motor through a series of gears. If I grab a hold of outer basket #2 with my hands and attempt to turn it, it WILL turn slightly and independent of gear #1 - but only 5 degrees or maybe less - that is, it seems as if #1 and #2 are not connected - it this normal***

You mention "rotational" slop of some amount. There should be NO play between basket #2 and gear #1 See my note above about the welds.

QUESTION: What do the green springs do in the back of that mechanism?

 

[Rick65Cat]

QUESTION: What do the green springs do in the back of that mechanism?

The ones mounted sideways? I always wondered that myself. Can someone chime in and give an explanation in simple terms?
Are they for dampening some kind of harmonic disturbance in the force?

 

[Guest]

Who's Basil???

 

[crapwacker]

Who's Basil???

"Whoop-tee-doo, what does it all mean, Basil?" from an Austin Powers movie...

 

[crapwacker]

The ones mounted sideways? I always wondered that myself. Can someone chime in and give an explanation in simple terms?
Are they for dampening some kind of harmonic disturbance in the force?

Yes, they are for dampening. They help to dissipate the shock of release

 

[Nessism]

The springs provide some cushion between the drive and driven portions of the hub. The stock springs tend to loosen and rattle, thus creating the classic clutch hub rattle noise. Also, guys that drag race and launch their bikes hard can flex and destroy the stock backing plate holding the clutch together thus the need for a heavy duty, thicker than stock, backing plate - held in place with rivets. I don't think the rivets loosen on their own, they are welded to the back plate after rebuilding the hub since that easier than trying to peen over new rivets.

 

[legaleli]

The springs provide some cushion between the drive and driven portions of the hub. The stock springs tend to loosen and rattle, thus creating the classic clutch hub rattle noise. Also, guys that drag race and launch their bikes hard can flex and destroy the stock backing plate holding the clutch together thus the need for a heavy duty, thicker than stock, backing plate - held in place with rivets. I don't think the rivets loosen on their own, they are welded to the back plate after rebuilding the hub since that easier than trying to peen over new rivets.

I'm pulling my drive portion of my hub (again) because I remember some movement of the "outer basket" when I forced it to move with gloved hands but the "big gear" to which is is riveted didn't move when the outer basket moved... just a few degrees but... if what I saw I actually saw then I've got a problem waiting to happen.

I'll have the results of that today.

I'm also pulling the carbs for cleaning, and removing the valve covers...

My girlfriend is out tonight with her girls, so I've got the garage and time to be in it!

This is major surgery for me... gonna need beer.

 

[legaleli]

Looks like trouble

Looks like trouble

RICK65CAT brought it to my attention - there should be no play between the outer basket and the drive gear.

I have confirmed a few minutes ago that when I grab the outer basket and turn it... with force... it moves about 2 degrees either way without the big gear to which it is attached moving.

Does this mean the outer basket has to come out, rivets popped, and welded? It seems that way to me...

For clarity when I wiggle #2 a degree or two right and left... #1 stays still.

I really need some help here. Is RICK65CAT correct? Just need confirmation...

 

[Rick65Cat]

Yes, the whole basket assembly has to come out. The welding is done on the back side where the rivets come through the gear.

That big honkin' center nut in the basket has to be removed. Best way is leave the bike in gear with the rear wheel somehow in contact with the ground. This helps prevent the clutch/engine turning over while you try to turn that nut. Theres also a big washer folded up against the nut I believe that has to be flattened so the nut will spin.
By Yumpin Yimminy DON'T FORGET to fold that washer back against the nut when you reinstall it.

I saw another post here a while back where the guy ground off the heads of the rivets and then when they were removed he chamfered the 3 holes in the gear so that with the rivets back in place he was able to get ultimate weld penetration. Dunno if you need to go that far. I've never taken one apart to examine the rivets for wear.

 

[legaleli]

Yes, the whole basket assembly has to come out. The welding is done on the back side where the rivets come through the gear.

That big honkin' center nut in the basket has to be removed. Best way is leave the bike in gear with the rear wheel somehow in contact with the ground. This helps prevent the clutch/engine turning over while you try to turn that nut. Theres also a big washer folded up against the nut I believe that has to be flattened so the nut will spin.
By Yumpin Yimminy DON'T FORGET to fold that washer back against the nut when you reinstall it.

I saw another post here a while back where the guy ground off the heads of the rivets and then when they were removed he chamfered the 3 holes in the gear so that with the rivets back in place he was able to get ultimate weld penetration. Dunno if you need to go that far. I've never taken one apart to examine the rivets for wear.

EXXXCELLENT!... this is my "bike for life". Updates to come. Thank you for the support.