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Clutch experts, advice needed please.

KEITH KRAUSE

KEITH KRAUSE

Forum Guru
Past Site Supporter
TGSR Superstar
Charter Member
This is something I think effects many of us, so I hope you'll read this long post and share your opinions or knowledge.
I never had a problem with my clutch dragging. I ran Castrol 20/50 oil for 100,000 miles. When Vance & Hines rebuilt it, they installed a set of aftermarket fiber plates. I assumed they would install genuine Suzuki but I guess it's my fault for not telling them. For breaking in the new motor, I ran straight 30wt for about 500 miles. Everything was fine until my first oil change.
I put in 20/50, started the bike and tapped it into gear. The bike jumped forward and stalled. An inspection showed everything was fine inside. I did notice the aftermarket fibers were .17" thick instead of the .10-.11" stockers. I also believe V&H removed 1 fiber and 1 steel plate. It seems to me there was 9 fibers and 8 steels when stock? Now there are 8 fibers and 7 steels.
I rode the bike for awhile wondering what was wrong. It was only a problem when the bike was cold. If I pulled the lever in and out several times, the bike would'nt jump, just some forward lurch. I eventually tried 10/40 oil and the dragging almost went away. I have'nt noticed any other problems with the clutch, so I lived with it.
Recently, this has been bugging me because I really would rather run 20/50 but it's obvious with the aftermarket plates I can't. So I need advice because here's what I think is the problem and cure.
For some silly reason the aftermarket fibers are .17" thick, the stockers are .10-.11" according to Suzuki. I THINK there are originally 9 fibers (right?) and 8 steels. The steels are, I think, .07" thick. If there are originally 9 fibers, they would total about .99" of material, the 8 aftermarket fibers would total 1.36" of material, that's .37" more. V&H removed 1 steel, so take away.07" and you get a total of .30'' more plate material.
I'm not a clutch expert but with that extra .30" of plates, how can the clutch NOT drag? It seems to me the clutch could not COMPLETELY dis-engage, especially with heavier weight oil and worse yet, cold oil.
So, if I take out 1 fiber and 1 steel, I will eliminate a total of .24", which will get me to within .06'' of what the basket was designed for. I don't believe .06" matters. My only alternative would be to buy genuine Suzuki plates @$22 ea. My V&H bill shows me I paid that much for my aftermarkets.
Do you think there's anything wrong with removing the plates? I don't like to think I'm accelerating the wear to my transmission, etc, but I sure don't want to mess up my clutch. I don't believe the plates are a problem, it's just the total thickness of the plates. If the amount of plate material in the basket is within .06' of stock, you should be able to run any wt oil you want. ADVICE GREATLY APPRECIATED! :)
 
Just use 10/40 or increase your warmup time. My Stock never been apart? 35K mile clutch does the same thing with 20/50, more so when the weather is cold. Don't remove any plates
 
Before you spend $22 each for Suzuki plates, APE racing sells OEM plates for $90 per set. So far they've worked great on my stock 1100. Years ago I had a barnett clutch (springs and plates) on my H2 and it was to much for street riding.

I think that V&H might have given you a kit with an extra pair of plates. Stock should be 8 fibers (can anyone else confirm this?).

Check:
http://www.gszone.biz/clutches.html and count the plates in the pictures.

Good luck

Jeff
 
Agree with Lynn.

Use the 10-40 and smile about it.

This is a cool season, so the difference is in your favour, anyway.

You may find by the time spring arrives there will be a tiny bit of change in the clutch, and you will be able to go back to 20-50, or, if you insist on that viscosity, switch to a different brand.

Since your break-in was done with 30 weight, you don't have a concern about the difference between the lighter 10 and 20, but there is likely some difference in the chemical formulation of the 20-50 oil that causes some additional swelling in the fibre plates.
 
Keith, I had that problem on my 1150 when I replaced my clutch linings with an aftermarket set. I was using Castrol 20w50 and the clutch dragged no matter how I adjusted it on startup. I changed oil to Mobil 1 and the problem
went away. I've used Mobil 1 every since and all has been fine.

Earl
 
I had the same problem on my 1100e Earl and Mobile one solved it also. Then i had to remove the oil cooler because the bike wouldnt warm up enough to suit me. Now that i have redone the basket sttel and fiber disks, I am back to 20-50 and no problems but i will admit that i keep my clutch a bit on the tight side. Still no more clunking like i had when i forst bought the bike. disks and fibers are aftermarket now.
I believe we sumised that when the oil is cold. 20 weight oil is thicker than hot 50 weight.
With mobile one and castrol syntec, the cold viscosities are 20 and 5 respectfully thus allowing the clutch to operate easily before warmups.
 
Clutch drag

Clutch drag

Another thought about your clutch problem. Have you inspected the clutch basket and the inner clutch hub? If there are pronounced dents from the clutch plate tangs to the aluminum you'll have some drag. It also might be magnified by the thicker oil. Carter
 
Have you questioned V&H about this? I don't wonder but that they did this with some very good reasons in mind, (such as ultimate clutch peformance and previous knowledge of the behaviour of these plates), and very possibly also recommend the use of a certain oil along with this set-up, (possibly synthetic). Or else someone made a very big mistake. Good help is sometimes hard to find.
 
Thanks for the replies :D ! As long as I stay with 10/40 I'm OK. On longer trips and hot weather I would feel better with 20/50 in it, but I know the problem MAY come back, depending on what brand of oil I get. The dragging clutch at cold take offs can be dealt with, it's the thought of doing damage to the transmission between shifts that really bothers me. Shifting seems OK but it figures there is still dragging going on while shifting, does'nt it? I wish the aftermarket plates were not made so much thicker. I also wish I had made it clear to V&H that I wanted Genuine Suzuki parts in this case. Now if I go back to stockers it's going to cost another $180-200. And to think I did'nt even get a deal on the ones that are in it :lol: . Lesson learned.
Since none of you think taking out 1 fiber/1 steel is the cure, I won't. It did make sense though, right?
I'm going to try the Mobil 1 at my next change and see what happens. However, this brings up an old subject. This site used to have an article in the "garage' section I think, that said using oil rated higher than "SG" was bad for roller bearing cranks. Oil rated higher was actually too slippery and would cause the bearings to slip instead of roll. Some of you have said this is not true and for some reason the article is gone now, but I'm still spooked about it. I use Motul 10/40 because it's SG rated. Anyways, I'll try the Mobil 1. This is a synthetic, right? Does it come in different weights? Does it extend the oil change intervals? Thanks again.
 
Keith, my biggest reason for not wanting to reduce clutch disks from 8 to 7 is that that would result in 12% less friction surface or to think of it another way, a 12% decrease in the ability of the clutch to transfer power.

I'm using (synthetic) Mobil 1 15w50 in my 1150E and it seems to really like it. I did notice a reduction in oil temp of about 10 degrees which is a good thing in southern Fl. :-) Ny viewpoint on oil change intervals is that the by-products of combustion dirty the oil regardless of the corrosion inhibitors the oil companies add to the oil, so while "extended" interval oil would be less corrosive, it is no less dirty. I change oil between 1000-1500 miles and change the filter every other oil change.

Earl


KEITH KRAUSE said:
Thanks for the replies :D ! As long as I stay with 10/40 I'm OK. On longer trips and hot weather I would feel better with 20/50 in it, but I know the problem MAY come back, depending on what brand of oil I get. The dragging clutch at cold take offs can be dealt with, it's the thought of doing damage to the transmission between shifts that really bothers me. Shifting seems OK but it figures there is still dragging going on while shifting, does'nt it? I wish the aftermarket plates were not made so much thicker. I also wish I had made it clear to V&H that I wanted Genuine Suzuki parts in this case. Now if I go back to stockers it's going to cost another $180-200. And to think I did'nt even get a deal on the ones that are in it :lol: . Lesson learned.
Since none of you think taking out 1 fiber/1 steel is the cure, I won't. It did make sense though, right?
I'm going to try the Mobil 1 at my next change and see what happens. However, this brings up an old subject. This site used to have an article in the "garage' section I think, that said using oil rated higher than "SG" was bad for roller bearing cranks. Oil rated higher was actually too slippery and would cause the bearings to slip instead of roll. Some of you have said this is not true and for some reason the article is gone now, but I'm still spooked about it. I use Motul 10/40 because it's SG rated. Anyways, I'll try the Mobil 1. This is a synthetic, right? Does it come in different weights? Does it extend the oil change intervals? Thanks again.
Click to expand...
 
Earl, thanks for the reply :) . I know you use Mobil 1, but what do you think about this SG,SH,etc, rating stuff and using "car" oil vs "motorcycle" oil?
Also, do you know why the aftermarket fibers are made thicker than stockers? A set of 8 would be a total of .48" more material. I'm surprised they fit in the basket, let alone work properly.
 
The oil I'm using is "car" oil. I dont use the motorcycle specific stuff. I avoid any of the "extended" milage oils due to the friction modifiers added to them.
My understanding of the primary difference between car and cyle specific oil is that the oil film of cycle oil is more shear resistant for a longer period of use. Motorcycle transmissions (I have been told) exert greater shear forces than do car transmissions. My opinion is that if you change the oil at shorter intervals, then the ultimate lifespan of the oil's shear capability is not a consideration. Better to run clean 15w50 Mobil 1 car oil than to run dirty cycle oil at double the milage. Besides that, cycle specific oil varies from $8 to $12 a quart at the dealer. I can get Mobil 1 at Walmart for $4 a quart. Changing twice as often doesnt save much money, but I always have fresh, clean oil in the bike.

Earl

KEITH KRAUSE said:
Earl, thanks for the reply :) . I know you use Mobil 1, but what do you think about this SG,SH,etc, rating stuff and using "car" oil vs "motorcycle" oil?
Also, do you know why the aftermarket fibers are made thicker than stockers? A set of 8 would be a total of .48" more material. I'm surprised they fit in the basket, let alone work properly.
Click to expand...
 
Keith,

Give it some time and it will get better. I put aftermarket plates and springs in my '83 1100E some years ago and had the same symptom. It would jump going from neutral to first and was very difficult to find neutral when sitting still. Over time it got much better. Mobil 1 did seem to reduce the severity.

Joe
 
Thanks for the replies. :) I'm going to try the Mobil 1 at my next change.
At $4/qt at Walmart, it won't even cost any more than the Motul 10/40 "motorcycle" oil I'm using now.
 
Just remember that many car oils meeting the latest standards also meet all earlier standards. The SG preference comes from such oils not needing to reduce certain additives (that are mostly to do with extreme conditions of metal to metal contact, not normal lubrication) because of their effect in cat converters. Stay clear of energy conserving oils as they usually with have friction modifiers that are not good for wet clutches. Anthing above a 30w is usually ok as they don't have to meet the energy conserving standards, but there are some 40w oils around that are energy conserving, so watch out.

I have copies of all these sort of oil articles I will put on when I get home.
 
saaz, thanks for the reply. :) I'll look forward to reading the articles.
Just curious, what oil do you run?
 
Some links are in the other oil thread..

I run a semi synthetic 15W-60 Penrite. Normally I would run a 20W-60 or 20W-50 mineral oil in summer, in fact all year round, just happened to have a drum of the 15W-60 around. I use the same oil in the car (5 litre V8). At the moment temperatures are above 30c.

The bike had 80,000kms on the rebuild and tends to warm up very quickly compared to standard. The better the quality of the oil, the better the gearbox behaves I find.

I cover the oil cooler in the dead of winter if I am doing short trips. I don't have cold clutch drag problems even at 0c temps, but I did put in standard suzuki plates....sorry to increase your paranoia on this! When warm it has that typical clunck, but does not lurch forward. With barnett plates I did have more clutch drag.
 
Saaz
boy i get angry when you Aussies remind me that you have multiviscosity oils with a ???/60 spread in thrm. I wish i could get some without spending $8 a qt/litre
 
Dragging.....

Dragging.....

Hi guys!
I don't wish to rehash the subject but do you think such a dragging problem similar to this discussion has happened to my wifes machine?
We got her 80 850G with a hopped up engine and a so called racing clutch. The clutch allways dragged bad with a hard pull. I pulled the obvious heavy springs & replaced with stock but the dragging has persisted......The cable is new but it did'nt occur to me that they changed the count of steel plate to friction plate.....anyone know the count off the top of the head.....if it is off that would explain alot!
Rick.........
 
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