Clutch questions

[scott]

I'm having a hard time shifting up into 2nd gear from 1st on my GS550. It also seems to "lurch" forward somewhat when I shift from neutral to 1st gear (not severely although I'm not really sure what severe would be). Other gear changes seem ok and I haven't had a problem stalling when I come to stop. I found another post where cowboyup3371 had some of the same problems with his GS550 and was able to resolve it by doing the clutch adjustment as described in the manual using the 3 adjusters (1 - clutch lever, 2 - where the cable meets the engine, and 3 - the screw under the clutch adjustment cover).

I have adjusted the clutch cable several time at these 3 points following the steps in the Clymer manual. It seems a bit better immediately after the adjustment but it doesn't last. Even immediately after adjustment, I wouldn't call it perfect (still lurches a bit and upshifting to 2nd isn't exactly easy).

So I'm assuming the logical first step would be to replace the clutch cable with an OEM part? Would it make sense to replace the clutch springs as well or is that not necessary?

My other question is about a something I found when doing the cable adjustment using the screw under the "clutch adjustment cover". There is something above the adjustment screw. It's wet and kind of ... gelatinous. In the other post, Nessism mentioned "lube the helix mechanism built into the clutch cover (there is a grease nipple)". Is that what I'm seeing? Does it look normal?

Clutch adjustment cover removed (adjuster is the screw / nut in the middle):

Closeup - is this thing above the adjuster just a .... greased nipple?:

 

[Nessism]

That little protrusion with the ball in the center is a grease nipple. You take a grease gun and then shoot some grease inside.

Regarding the clutch adjustment, as you already stated there are three possible areas to adjust. I suggest you screw in the adjustment at the hand lever and then use the helix to take all the slack out of the cable. You want the clutch lever to be tight, with only a little slack when fully released. The hard shifting and lurch you are noting is because the clutch is dragging. Tighten the cable until it fully releases when you pull it in.

Good luck and hope this helps.

 

[scott]

That little protrusion with the ball in the center is a grease nipple. You take a grease gun and then shoot some grease inside.

Ok - so that goop is just grease. Given that it's all over the nipple, I assume there's enough grease in there for now. Are there symptoms that indicate more grease is needed there?

Regarding the clutch adjustment, as you already stated there are three possible areas to adjust. I suggest you screw in the adjustment at the hand lever and then use the helix to take all the slack out of the cable. You want the clutch lever to be tight, with only a little slack when fully released. The hard shifting and lurch you are noting is because the clutch is dragging. Tighten the cable until it fully releases when you pull it in.

While I do have the hand lever adjustment screwed in all the way, one thing I haven't been doing is screwing in the adjustment where the cable meets the engine in all the way before using the helix (I assume the "helix" is the screw under the clutch adjustment cover) to find the resistance point. I'll give that a try.

Good luck and hope this helps.

Yes, definitely - thanks!

 

[Nessism]

Ok - so that goop is just grease. Given that it's all over the nipple, I assume there's enough grease in there for now. Are there symptoms that indicate more grease is needed there?


While I do have the hand lever adjustment screwed in all the way, one thing I haven't been doing is screwing in the adjustment where the cable meets the engine in all the way before using the helix (I assume the "helix" is the screw under the clutch adjustment cover) to find the resistance point. I'll give that a try.


Yes, definitely - thanks!

That grease is crusty and dried out. I suggest a new shot into that nipple.

You can turn both the hand lever adjustment and the cable end adjustment all the way in, and then use that helix adjustment to take the slack out of the cable. Loosen the lock nut and then turn the screw slot until all the slack is out of the hand lever. Again, you only want a small amount of free play at the lever, but make sure there is some.

Have fun

 

[cowboyup3371]

Hey Ed, someone actually used the search function:clap:. Maybe we ought to give him a few extra brownie points.

All kidding aside Scott (hey I'm Scott too), everything you saw and that Ed told you is spot on. I found that by adjusting the end that feeds into the sprocket cover things settled down on me. I will also recommend getting the new cable (I need to do so as well) and really taking your time to adjust it. Don't get frustrated too quick and make sure you have a test run first and then a longer run that allows your bike to warm up. Then you'll know for sure if what you did fixed it.

Good luck and let us know how things go.

 

[scott]

Update

Update

I adjusted the cable by tightening both the handle lever adjustment and the cable end adjustment the feeds into the sprocket cover all the way. I then used the helix/screw to find the resistance point and stopped (even though there was still plenty of free play at the lever). Then I used the cable end adjustment that feeds into the sprocket cover to get the free play at the lever to just over 2mm.

I assume I shouldn't "tighten" the helix/screw until the free play at the hand lever is at the desired point but rather just stop when I first feel any resistance. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong?

I went for a test ride and it seemed similar to the other times right after adjustment - okay but not great. It still had a slight bump forward when I took it out of neutral and getting into second wasn't very easy (but it would get in eventually at least).

Side question: when people say the bike "lurches forward" - do they mean this bump I'm experiencing or it a slow rolling forward motion that does not stop? In my case, after the initial "bump" into gear, the bike does not move forward when I hold in the clutch lever.

When I got back from about a 20 minute ride around my neighborhood, I checked the free play at the lever and it had increased to almost 4mm. This is still within spec but something seems off if it's changing like that. Is this a sign of a cable that needs replacing? Or am I not tightening something enough (I haven't been really torquing on these adjusters)?

Thanks for all the advice guys.

 

[Rudeman]

How is the wear at the clutch lever pivot? Remove the cable and check it if it is excessively worn it will be difficult to set the free play accurately. increase in freeplay is normal after the bike is warmed up and ridden for a while but I'm not sure if it should double the cold setting. Are you using stock clutch or are you running extra friction and steel plates?

A lurch like you described is okay; it should not pull you forward. I would be concerned about the fact that you have difficulty shifting through neutral.

 

[1948man]

Does the lurch symptom improve when the bike is warm? I think I have read it is not uncommon to have some sticking in wet clutches when the engine is cold.

 

[scott]

It seems like the free play "reset" to less than 3mm overnight so it does seem like the bike being warm vs cold is having an effect on the cable. I took another test ride. In general, I would say the 1st -> 2nd gear shifts do seem to get easier as the bike warms up even if it's never really smooth/easy. This past test ride I only had one instance where I really couldn't get it into 2nd (probably took almost 10 seconds of retrying!). Fortunately I'm only riding on my neighborhood roads. If there was traffic behind me ... not good. That was pretty early into the ride so the bike would have been somewhat cold.

How is the wear at the clutch lever pivot? Remove the cable and check it if it is excessively worn it will be difficult to set the free play accurately.

I'll have to check this. Would the wear be in Part 3 in the fiche below? At least it's replaceable if that's the problem.

Are you using stock clutch or are you running extra friction and steel plates?

As far as I know it's stock but I can't say definitively. I haven't opened it up to look.

Does the lurch symptom improve when the bike is warm? I think I have read it is not uncommon to have some sticking in wet clutches when the engine is cold.

In the middle of the test ride, I stopped and put it into neutral to try it. It still bumped a little. When I got back home (maybe a 30 minute test ride), I tried it again in the garage. For some reason, I had a bit of a problem finding neutral and even a problem getting it into 1st from neutral (that's the first time that's happened). The interesting thing was that when it went it did go into 1st, there was NO bump/lurch (another first). It was so strange to not have ANY bump that I made sure to confirm it was in gear.

I'm not really sure what to make of it though.

 

[Guest]

When was the last oil change, old oil , or oil that has been contaminated maybe with gas would make shifts a little difficult. I have a GS750 that I bought new in 83 and have always run Castor Oil , motorcycle oil in it. Sent it to a shop for some dyno runs and had them change the oil they put Torco in it ,the bike would hang in gear. drained the oil and put Castor oil back in it and it shifted like new again. Try an oil change

 

[Suzuki_Don]

OK. The way I see it there could be two problems.

The first is the clutch is not adjusted properly.

Back off both adjusters like you did previously, one at the handlebar and one on the sprocket cover. Release the locknut on the small stud in the helix gear, turn the threaded stud out so you are sure you have clearance, then turn it back in again until it touches the clutch pushrod inside the transmission case. When you feel this resistance you then back out the threaded stud 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn to provide clearance. If there is no clearance here and the stud and pushrod expand then the clutch will not be fully released after the motor warms up.

It's all in the manual. Then readjust the two adjuster at either end of the cable to achieve the correct free play at the handlebar lever.

The other possibility if this doesn't fix the problem is with the clutch itself. Bent clutch plates, grooved clutch basket surfaces, plates that will not slide smoothly in the basket and clutch plate surface deterioration. All these things can cause problems in the lower three gears of the transmission when changing gears.

 

[scott]

When was the last oil change, old oil , or oil that has been contaminated maybe with gas would make shifts a little difficult. I have a GS750 that I bought new in 83 and have always run Castor Oil , motorcycle oil in it. Sent it to a shop for some dyno runs and had them change the oil they put Torco in it ,the bike would hang in gear. drained the oil and put Castor oil back in it and it shifted like new again. Try an oil change

The oil was just changed a few weeks ago (3rd oil change since March). However, the reason it's had so many oil changes was that the first issue I was trying to address was fuel getting into the oil. I replaced the petcock, cleaned/dipped the carbs, replace the O-rings, checked/set the float heights, etc. One of the float needle springs seems a little weak but I don't think it was bad enough to cause a problem.

So, while I think the oil is clean, I'm not positive. If the carbs are still overflowing, it's much less than before. The oil level hasn't been going up noticeably like it was before at least.

 

[Nessism]

On my old 550T the clutch would get grabby and drag when the engine got hot. It was very hard to find neutral and the shifting was clunky when warm. Took the clutch apart and never could find anything wrong with it. The clutch cable was set tight to make sure the clutch fully releasing but it was still the same. Only thing I can think of to try is maybe change the clutch friction discs and measure the steel discs for flatness. Other than this I'm at a loss for suggestions.

 

[scott]

OK. The way I see it there could be two problems.

The first is the clutch is not adjusted properly.

Back off both adjusters like you did previously, one at the handlebar and one on the sprocket cover. Release the locknut on the small stud in the helix gear, turn the threaded stud out so you are sure you have clearance, then turn it back in again until it touches the clutch pushrod inside the transmission case. When you feel this resistance you then back out the threaded stud 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn to provide clearance. If there is no clearance here and the stud and pushrod expand then the clutch will not be fully released after the motor warms up.

It's all in the manual. Then readjust the two adjuster at either end of the cable to achieve the correct free play at the handlebar lever.

I'm pretty sure I'm doing it correctly. The one thing I'm not sure about is the helix screw "resistance". If the screw is hitting a rod, I would think that may be more resistance than I'm feeling (unless the rod moves back as I screw in). I've been stopping once the screw doesn't turn as freely and then backing it out 1/4 - 1/2 turn (Clymer specifies that rather than 1/8 to 1/4).

The other possibility if this doesn't fix the problem is with the clutch itself. Bent clutch plates, grooved clutch basket surfaces, plates that will not slide smoothly in the basket and clutch plate surface deterioration. All these things can cause problems in the lower three gears of the transmission when changing gears.

If the adjustment attempts don't address it (and if a new cable isn't likely to fix anything), this seems like the next step. These parts are all accessed on the right side right? So I guess I have to drain the oil again.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

If the adjustment attempts don't address it (and if a new cable isn't likely to fix anything), this seems like the next step. These parts are all accessed on the right side right? So I guess I have to drain the oil again.

Yes it's the big cover on the right with the oil sight glass in it. Some others on here have said that by leaning the bike over on the sidestand the cover can be taken off without losing any oil, but as you need to inspect everything in the clutch housing I would drain the oil and leave it 24 hours for as much oil as possible to drain off the plates, etc. makes the job a little less messy.

 

[scott]

First of all, I probably should have asked: am I hurting anything by riding the bike in this condition? I hope not - I just got my license last month so I've been anxious to actually ride the bike after getting it (sort of) running. I haven't been riding it hard - I'm still just practicing on neighborhood streets. Anyway, I took another ride and have a few more observations.

The shift from 1st to 2nd is almost impossible when the RPMs are above 2K. It may not be a smooth shift, but if the RPMs drop to 1500-2000, it seems to go into 2nd. When the bike is cold and I still have some choke on, the RPMs don't seem to drop that quickly when I pull the clutch in making it particularly hard to get into 2nd. When the bike is warmer (and the choke is off), the RPMs drop quicker so shifting into 2nd is a little easier (again, not smooth or immediate, but it shifts provided I wait for the RPMs to drop).

Does that mean something useful? Thinking about it, it doesn't seem like that's a new piece of information. Not that I know what I'm talking about but it seems to make sense - if the clutch isn't fully engaging, a lower engine speed would make it easier to ... force it into gear, if that's what I'm doing. I've never heard any grinding sounds though.

Also, am I describing the "hanging idle" condition? When the bike is warm and I'm stopped, I'd say the bike is currently idling around 1500 (even though I'd adjusted it to 1100 using the idle screw about a week ago after the bike had warmed up). My understanding is these idle problems are caused by air leaks. For reference, within the last month I have replaced the intake boots themselves and the intake boot o-rings. I also sealed the airbox cover with weather stripping and adjusted the valves. As far as the carbs (dipped/cleaned, o-rings replaced), I'm pretty sure the mixture screws are not set to the ideal position and I haven't synched the carbs yet.

On my old 550T the clutch would get grabby and drag when the engine got hot. It was very hard to find neutral and the shifting was clunky when warm. Took the clutch apart and never could find anything wrong with it. The clutch cable was set tight to make sure the clutch fully releasing but it was still the same.

Hmm - so maybe I have a temperamental clutch and will have to live with it.

as you need to inspect everything in the clutch housing I would drain the oil and leave it 24 hours for as much oil as possible to drain off the plates, etc. makes the job a little less messy.

I'll see if I can find time to tackle it this weekend but I'll probably wait until the clutch springs I ordered arrive. I didn't order a new gasket for the crankcase though - am I going to need one? I don't think I've placed an order for parts without realizing I needed something else a day or two later. If I find out I need new clutch plates or something, I'll have to place another order anyway I guess.

 

[cowboyup3371]

You aren't really hurting much except making it harder on yourself...at least from what I'm seeing with mine. But, i just ordered a new clutch cable so maybe that will help me out some too.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Listen guys this is do-able. Don't tolerate a bad clutch action, it takes the joy out of riding. I wish you lived a bit closer and could have a ride on my 550 and you would see what a smooth clutch action is like. It is not a built in problem you have to live with.

The only time my clutch plays up (and it is expected in this situation) is when I've started the bike and put it into gear for the first time when the motor is cold. And that is because the clutch plates are stuck together with the thicker cold oil. Sometimes it even stalls. But it only does this once to separate the clutch plates and then it operates perfectly.

Pull the clutch and if possible give us some pictures of the clutch plates, clutch basket, and other bits as you pull them. We will try and give advice as you need it. Use a straight edge on the steel plates to check them for straightness. Check both sets of plates, fibre and steels, that they slide easily in their respective grooves in the outer basket or inner drum. Check how much clearance there is between the ears of the fibre plates and the grooves in the basket they slide in. All these specs are in the manual. I had to dress the ears of the new fibres I got from EBC, they were too wide and would not slide freely in the basket. I took about 1/2 mm off each one and as I say my clutch works perfectly now and my motor is putting out between 25 and 30hp more than your motors with no problems now at all.

Keep us updated.

 

[scott]

Listen guys this is do-able. Don't tolerate a bad clutch action, it takes the joy out of riding. I wish you lived a bit closer and could have a ride on my 550 and you would see what a smooth clutch action is like. It is not a built in problem you have to live with.

The only time my clutch plays up (and it is expected in this situation) is when I've started the bike and put it into gear for the first time when the motor is cold. And that is because the clutch plates are stuck together with the thicker cold oil. Sometimes it even stalls. But it only does this once to separate the clutch plates and then it operates perfectly.

Pull the clutch and if possible give us some pictures of the clutch plates, clutch basket, and other bits as you pull them. We will try and give advice as you need it. Use a straight edge on the steel plates to check them for straightness. Check both sets of plates, fibre and steels, that they slide easily in their respective grooves in the outer basket or inner drum. Check how much clearance there is between the ears of the fibre plates and the grooves in the basket they slide in. All these specs are in the manual. I had to dress the ears of the new fibres I got from EBC, they were too wide and would not slide freely in the basket. I took about 1/2 mm off each one and as I say my clutch works perfectly now and my motor is putting out between 25 and 30hp more than your motors with no problems now at all.

Keep us updated.

I haven't given up. The clutch springs I ordered still haven't arrived so I haven't taken the clutch apart yet. They should arrive before this weekend I think.

I started taking rides outside my neighborhood so I've gotten it up to 4th gear and about 45 MPH now. When the bike really gets warmed up like this, the shifts actually seem really good (even 1st to 2nd) - granted I don't have a whole lot for comparison but it seems correct/smooth. I've had a few rides like this: 3-4 minutes on choke idling followed by maybe a 5-7 minute cruise around my neighborhood to warm up the bike enough to turn off the choke. At this point 1st->2nd shifts are bearable. About 5-10 minutes later, outside my neighborhood, 1st->2nd shifts seem fine.

Of course, on my last ride (my longest to date - maybe 20 miles) it stalled at 2 different stop signs towards the end of the ride. When I got back home, it didn't stall but I noticed the idle was low (900-1000). So I assume the culprit for the stalling is whatever is causing the low idle and not the clutch. Now, why it was idling low all of a sudden ... I have no idea.

I'll post an update when I take the clutch apart.

 

[clee]

I've been having a similar problem... but not quite the same. I have an '84 GS1150EF and when first starting up I'll put it in gear and the bike wants to pull forward. If I drop it into first or even second I can't get it into any other gear, the plates are not letting go.

For some added info... and this one is a puzzle... when I rev the engine above 3k the plates will free up and it doesn't pull, but as soon as the engine idles down the bike will want to pull again. Also when the bike warms up (5-10mins of riding) everything frees up perfectly. After a couple of hours of not riding the same thing happens all over again.

I've adjusted the clutch cable, and I have changed the oil with Amsoil full synthetic. There is no slipping in the clutch at all.

There is supposedly a high performance aftermarket clutch in it now (I don't know the brand). I'm planning on taking the clutch apart for a look but I don't know what to expect. Does anyone know how many friction and metal plates I should have in the 1150? Is there anything else I should look for?

Any/all advice would be appreciated.