Confirming diagnosis - bad battery?

[mike_of_bbg]

Well I'd staved off most of the electrical gremlins for seasons one and two, but it looks like my third year with the bike is the year of the electron

A few weeks ago I went through the stator papers because it had been a while. It was charging hot at about 15.5V @ 5k. Everything else seemed right down the middle:

0.1v max drop across r/r leads
69V from each stator leg @ 5k
1.0 ohms across each stator pair, open to ground

etc. Passed every diode test and so forth. So I ordered a Shindengen r/r. A couple of weeks later (hadn't installed new r/r yet), I was getting the following:

12.35V bike off
12.07V @ idle
12.80V @ 5k

Ouch. Stator output and resistance still seem fine. Noticed two batt cells were about 10% low on water, topped them off. Replaced r/r with the Shindengen, but I'm still only getting 12.80 @ 5k. The new r/r is getting warm (not very hot).

Now I'm left at the very bottom of the chart. Only thing left it could be is the battery. My thinking is that the hot charging r/r cooked my batt. Sound reasonable?

Oh, batt is putting out about 11.8V (bike off) now.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Is there a place where you can have your battery load tested?

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[rustybronco]

Oh, batt is putting out about 11.8V (bike off) now.

Charge the battery, leave it settle for a few hours and test it again.

 

[bakalorz]

Well I'd staved off most of the electrical gremlins for seasons one and two, but it looks like my third year with the bike is the year of the electron

A few weeks ago I went through the stator papers because it had been a while. It was charging hot at about 15.5V @ 5k. Everything else seemed right down the middle:

0.1v max drop across r/r leads
69V from each stator leg @ 5k
1.0 ohms across each stator pair, open to ground

etc. Passed every diode test and so forth. So I ordered a Shindengen r/r. A couple of weeks later (hadn't installed new r/r yet), I was getting the following:

12.35V bike off
12.07V @ idle
12.80V @ 5k

Ouch. Stator output and resistance still seem fine. Noticed two batt cells were about 10% low on water, topped them off. Replaced r/r with the Shindengen, but I'm still only getting 12.80 @ 5k. The new r/r is getting warm (not very hot).

Now I'm left at the very bottom of the chart. Only thing left it could be is the battery. My thinking is that the hot charging r/r cooked my batt. Sound reasonable?

Oh, batt is putting out about 11.8V (bike off) now.

The battery may or may not be bad too, but something else is at the root of your problems.

When it was overcharging, it converted some of the water to hydrogen and oxygen and bubbled them out. This is not actually harmful to the battery provided that you replace the water (with distilled water only ... $1 at any grocery store)
If lots of the water is gassed off so that the plates are exposed, and then it sits like that, then any of the exposed plate surface is ruined, but the part of the plate that was still submerged is ok

Since it was only 10% down, its likely that you didn't really do much damage to the battery.

If you had damaged the battery, the symptoms would be that it would lose capacity, which basically means it wouldn't be able to start the bike anymore. But even with a really damaged battery: if the charging system is fine, then the charging voltage will be ok once you bump or jump start it. (with the exception of a battery that has one cell completely shorted ... but your resting voltage of 11.8 is too high to have a completely shorted cell.)

If your charging voltage is still too low, there is something wrong with the stator, rectifier-regulator or the connections somewhere.

My off the cuff guess is in the connections somewhere.

Also, if your battery is not yet damaged, letting it sit at 11.8 volts WILL damage it, put it on a "plug it in the wall" charger and charge it immediately.

 

[earlfor]

Well I'd staved off most of the electrical gremlins for seasons one and two, but it looks like my third year with the bike is the year of the electron

A few weeks ago I went through the stator papers because it had been a while. It was charging hot at about 15.5V @ 5k. Everything else seemed right down the middle:

0.1v max drop across r/r leads
69V from each stator leg @ 5k
1.0 ohms across each stator pair, open to ground

etc. Passed every diode test and so forth. So I ordered a Shindengen r/r. A couple of weeks later (hadn't installed new r/r yet), I was getting the following:

12.35V bike off
12.07V @ idle
12.80V @ 5k

Ouch. Stator output and resistance still seem fine. Noticed two batt cells were about 10% low on water, topped them off. Replaced r/r with the Shindengen, but I'm still only getting 12.80 @ 5k. The new r/r is getting warm (not very hot).

Now I'm left at the very bottom of the chart. Only thing left it could be is the battery. My thinking is that the hot charging r/r cooked my batt. Sound reasonable?

Oh, batt is putting out about 11.8V (bike off) now.

The battery is shot and ready for the dumpster. Charging voltage dropped to 12.8 @5k and the battery rests at 11.8. That battery is nothing more than a lump of coal.

Earl

 

[posplayr]

The battery is low and the tests require a good charged battery. If nothing changes after putting in a good battery I would look at a stator replacement.


http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=174130&highlight=stator+pages+phase


Revised PHASE B of Stator Pages


Your voltage drops are low but unless you are charging you are not really testing them so those results are indeterminate at this point.

 

[mike_of_bbg]

First, thank you for the replies.

The battery does start the bike just fine. Turn-over speed seems normal. Had I not done the stator tests I would not guess anything could be wrong. It's 2 years old and is standard, non-AGM (obviously). DieHard I think; Sears was the only place I could find a battery in stock locally in my size.

When I get home I'll try popping it on the trickle charger. After it's charged I'll reinstall, pull the plug wires and check the starting voltage vs. resting.

I must admit that I'm not familiar enough with the internal workings of the battery to understand by what physical process it could have a "sinking" effect on the charging system. But I've reached the end of the stator tests and am at the point where it says,

As this was the last test, the only thing that can be at fault is the battery itself. Replace it with a healthy, fully charged one and return to START.

so that's where I'm arriving at this diagnosis. My lack of understanding makes me post here for confirmation/further ideas.

It could be bad wiring I suppose, but the voltage drop from r/r output to battery was less than 0.1V. Wouldn't the drop be higher if I was losing much through the wiring? With the Shindengen r/r, the dual grounds are split to the battery directly and back to a chassis ground under the seat. There isn't enough variation in voltage between those two grounds to register on my DMM (<0.01V). Anything else I should check?

 

[posplayr]

Anything else I should check?

look at page 6 of 9 on the pdf file. leg to ground voltage tests

 

[tom203]

Mr. Mike of bbq; you need a fully charged battery to get a decent result from charging/stator tests. Charge it up and run tests again- also try putting the sense wire from Shindegen directly to battery positive and see if you get different results.

 

[mike_of_bbg]

Thanks guys, I'll try some additional tests. Battery is charging right now.

Just to be clear, when I did the stator tests the battery was @ 12.3xV, which seems to be its "normal" charged voltage (when the charging system was running hot that's what the voltage would be afterward). Last night the battery was at ~11.8V, but I had not run it for a while. The drain was probably from turning on the ignition to check lights, etc., after I cleaned some connectors. Although, the total time the bike was on was less than 10 minutes. The fact that the battery got down <12V is probably very telling.

 

[posplayr]

Thanks guys, I'll try some additional tests. Battery is charging right now.

Just to be clear, when I did the stator tests the battery was @ 12.3xV, which seems to be its "normal" charged voltage (when the charging system was running hot that's what the voltage would be afterward). Last night the battery was at ~11.8V, but I had not run it for a while. The drain was probably from turning on the ignition to check lights, etc., after I cleaned some connectors. Although, the total time the bike was on was less than 10 minutes. The fact that the battery got down <12V is probably very telling.

12.3 is plain low. Right after a charge you should have a surface charge right at 13.0 V and easily be at 12.8 room temp.

 

[mike_of_bbg]

OK, my float charger took about 20 hours to, but got it up to ~13.03V. After taking it off the charger, it settled to about 12.7V in 1/2-hour.

From there:

11.55V when the lights came on.

10.55V after 10 seconds of cranking.

Put the plugs back in and started it.

12.33V or so at idle. It immediately jumped up to 12.8V at 5k and lingered there. Then I dropped a lead. When I got the DMM hooked back up it was on its way up though. Took almost a minute (I dared not run it much longer than that stationary at 5k!), but it seemed to settle in at ~14.55V.

 

[posplayr]

OK, my float charger took about 20 hours to, but got it up to ~13.03V. After taking it off the charger, it settled to about 12.7V in 1/2-hour.

From there:

11.55V when the lights came on.

10.55V after 10 seconds of cranking.

Put the plugs back in and started it.

12.33V or so at idle. It immediately jumped up to 12.8V at 5k and lingered there. Then I dropped a lead. When I got the DMM hooked back up it was on its way up though. Took almost a minute (I dared not run it much longer than that stationary at 5k!), but it seemed to settle in at ~14.55V.

sounds like you have a bad battery; did you see how to diagnose using the Quick test

 

[mike_of_bbg]

I had not, though the look at your quick test says what I already thought. The cranking voltage wasn't that bad, but the drop with the lights on was too much.

I'll look around tomorrow and see what I can find in stock... Probably won't be much. The Suzuki dealer stocks some batts, maybe they'll happen to have an AGM battery in the proper size.

 

[posplayr]

I had not, though the look at your quick test says what I already thought. The cranking voltage wasn't that bad, but the drop with the lights on was too much.

I'll look around tomorrow and see what I can find in stock... Probably won't be much. The Suzuki dealer stocks some batts, maybe they'll happen to have an AGM battery in the proper size.

You could take it to an autoparts store with a battery tester, but it is almost 1 volt lower that it should be from a comparision with my bike with an 8" headlamp.

 

[bakalorz]

OK, my float charger took about 20 hours to, but got it up to ~13.03V. After taking it off the charger, it settled to about 12.7V in 1/2-hour.

From there:

11.55V when the lights came on.

10.55V after 10 seconds of cranking.

Put the plugs back in and started it.

12.33V or so at idle. It immediately jumped up to 12.8V at 5k and lingered there. Then I dropped a lead. When I got the DMM hooked back up it was on its way up though. Took almost a minute (I dared not run it much longer than that stationary at 5k!), but it seemed to settle in at ~14.55V.

Was the 10.55V during the cranking, right at the end; or was it just after you stopped cranking, but the battery couldn't recover.

If it was during cranking, your battery is better than mine, which dropped to 9v during cranking 10 secs with the plug wires pulled (but recovered to 12 v within seconds afterward).
(its over 4 years old, and seen some abuse ... I'll probably see if it lasts the season ... maybe next too)

If it was after, the battery is pretty shot, but given that it still starts the bike ...

Regardless, there is still something else wrong with the charging system,
Even a crap battery should still come up to above 14 pretty much instantly as soon as the revs go above 2k or so. That yours doesn't means something besides just a bad battery is going on.

(My crappy battery came up to 13.5 instantly and then above 14 within 5 seconds)

Did you check if the stator has a short to ground (disconnect all the stator leads from the R/R, measure resistance from any stator lead to the batteries ground post. Should be infinite (above 10,000 ohms for sure)

Also, try running with one of the three stator leads dis-connected from the R/R and seeing how it charges. Do it three times, disconnecting all three leads one at a time.

If all three times are worse this is correct.
If two times are worse, but one time is the same as it was with all leads connected then that connection (probably the bullet connector) is not making contact.

 

[mike_of_bbg]

New (AGM this time) battery installed, and now, yes, it is up over 14V in just a couple of seconds with RPM. Time to go ride...