Could a sh775 kill a stator?

[Gorminrider]

The proposition that there is 6 ohms of resistance in a shorted R/R demonstrates a lack of any real grasp of the basic operation of the circuit.

Well, I fail. Old R/Rs burn out, old stators burn out. I'm not getting "why" in this course so I think I'll drop this course and The "Professor" is really cranky. But I'm happy enough with my speculation that the base is not being fully saturated and therefore it gets hot acting as though it has a higher resistance....combined with a semi-mystical grasp of hysterisis and other Mysteries, it'll probably tide me over until I can find a more satisfying answer.

Not had an SH775 fail, but when I installed it two 1/2 years ago, I deliberately left in a slightly-cooked stator that wouldn't normally last the summer with a shunt RR.

good news,Grimly. You won't mind if I quote you as an illustration of a few of my puzzles? It's not about you and you needn't answer but I read similar all the time..... I'm not sure how you know it wouldn't last with a "shunt R/R"...but which shunt R/R is likely part of my question too. And the exact meaning of "cooked"? Is appearance is due to oil-vapour being burned onto the stator by the stator or if the oil vapour is merely discolouring the varnish....or if the varnish itself is Truly toasted and the varnish flakes off...pretty plain on a burned-out electric motor where the varnish flakes off leaving bare wire. Discolouration does not flake off.
I am not sure either how old your stator is or how many miles it has. Do stators have a lifetime expectancy? Are the stators made in 1980 failing just because their varnish is poor or aged out like tire rubber? questions questions.
The one thing I surmise from a lot of posts I have read: Replacing all the components is going to be a good thing and should give at least the mileage the old ones did.. even with the unpopular shunt R/R which, I surmise is an average 20 -30 thousand miles?( a very rough guess) and that might be enough that I don't have to deal with it again..

 

[posplayr]

Well, I fail. Old R/Rs burn out, old stators burn out. I'm not getting "why" in this course so I think I'll drop this course and The "Professor" is really cranky. But I'm happy enough with my speculation that the base is not being fully saturated and therefore it gets hot acting as though it has a higher resistance....combined with a semi-mystical grasp of hysterisis and other Mysteries, it'll probably tide me over until I can find a more satisfying answer.

Sorry for being cranky but you are grasping at straws and ignoring the obvious.
You can read the voltage across the R/R when shunted right from the plots in that link. It is less than 1 volt.

Since you mentioned a base, I assume you are referring to SCR's and not the MOSFET shunt R/R. The SCR does not have a mode where the transistor is operated in the unsaturated mode. It is either full on or full off.


http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/semiconductors/chpt-7/silicon-controlled-rectifier-scr/

 

[Gorminrider]

Sorry for being cranky but you are grasping at straws and ignoring the obvious.
You can read the voltage across the R/R when shunted right from the plots in that link. It is less than 1 volt.

Since you mentioned a base, I assume you are referring to SCR's and not the MOSFET shunt R/R. The SCR does not have a mode where the transistor is operated in the unsaturated mode. It is either full on or full off.


http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/semiconductors/chpt-7/silicon-controlled-rectifier-scr/

OK! thanks. That is more useful than what I was reading... yes, I am referring to SCRS (as I thought was plain), seeing as the old R/Rs were SCRs . and my speculation does revolve around a concern that these do not have the cutoffs or breakdowns that are as sharp or "square" as I would have thought and acting with more heating being more resistant...I know for instance that zener diodes do not break down exactly"square" (if you get my meaning!) and ..equilibrium in a charging system is a constant change of up and down..example: The shunt is engaged, the system voltage drops, below the setpoint..... The shunt is therefore disengaged and voltage rises above the setpoint and the shunt is re-engaged...over and over, very quickly. If it is not the scrs, then some component is giving off the heat which I think is the fact of burned out oem R/Rs. ( aside: that usually keep conducting through their rectification stage which is a clue) The why seems important to me. But "replacement" is probably more useful!
It seems to me the same cycling and "hunting" for stability is going to be going on in the series type or the Mosfet shunt type but where the series type is opening and closing a coil rapidly the other ( the shunt) is not. If it is Granted that the shunt-type is allowing more current in those same coils the comparison does still not seem a "no-brainer" to me.

 

[posplayr]

The only thing that is getting hot are those things that are carrying a lot of current. The only thing carrying primary current is either a diode or an SCR; in total that is items al lof which drop between 0.5-1.0 volts when forward biased/activated.

 

[Gorminrider]

Not that anyone noticed but just a note per shorting stator as a test mentioned in post 58..? I am just cherry-picking through a pdf I found ("Design Considerations for Permanent Magnet Direct Drive
Generators for Wind Energy Applications") that shorting their AC PM generators out can demagnetise the magnets, so maybe I won't do it! I can't see if they are using "ceramic" magnets but I expect so...
and it makes sense given that I used to demagnetise cassette decks and screwdrivers with a demagnetiser which is uses ac fields!

Hopefully this doesn't open up the question of the shunt doing the same thing but of course, it isn't always shunting either so it's counterfield? is weaker.

 

[Gorminrider]

yeah, well... I just find there's too much info on the internet...for instance, sh775's are apparently not for everyone.(there's an upgrade available?to a newer series -type?) Here's a post in an interesting thread per rpm breakdown of these. Not relevant unless you rev your bike to redline-still....
http://www.triumphrat.net/6885785-post15.html

There's a lot of talk about hot R/Rs here. I pretty much don't find it applicable because my ol' Honda ones get warmish in summer but not hot, compared to the OEM ones (eg: the OEM? Nippon Denso on the 650 functioned but was always hot!) as to why the difference in heat I am not sure.

I have been reading a lot of stuff. One wonders why This battery manufacturer doesn't "get it" and still (as of june 2016 )wants you to get a mosfet type shunt. It's Lithium batteries, so maybe that's important. And they likely don't care about your stator ! either but still...
http://shoraipower.com/Overview-of-Voltage-Regulator-Types



and finally I found someone else that brings up the stator itself. It's an old thread but seems to talk about stators themselves in an interesting way.
Facts about shunt-based regulators

 

[posplayr]

yeah, well... I just find there's too much info on the internet...for instance, sh775's are apparently not for everyone.(there's an upgrade available?to a newer series -type?) Here's a post in an interesting thread per rpm breakdown of these. Not relevant unless you rev your bike to redline-still....
http://www.triumphrat.net/6885785-post15.html

There's a lot of talk about hot R/Rs here. I pretty much don't find it applicable because my ol' Honda ones get warmish in summer but not hot, compared to the OEM ones (eg: the OEM? Nippon Denso on the 650 functioned but was always hot!) as to why the difference in heat I am not sure.

I have been reading a lot of stuff. One wonders why This battery manufacturer doesn't "get it" and still (as of june 2016 )wants you to get a mosfet type shunt. It's Lithium batteries, so maybe that's important. And they likely don't care about your stator ! either but still...
http://shoraipower.com/Overview-of-Voltage-Regulator-Types



and finally I found someone else that brings up the stator itself. It's an old thread but seems to talk about stators themselves in an interesting way.
Facts about shunt-based regulators

Timebandit is a hack; he thinks he can reinvent all of electrical engineering with pure logical deduction.

I don't know why he defends SHUNT R/Rs but it is partially becuase of his associations with the Buell factory. Buell did not want to admit fault with a defective charging system, so TimBandit defends SHUNT and MOSFET R/Rs. I don't recall just now what they were doing but Buell was offering a retrofit rotor of some sort to finally solve the issue. It was an expensive $500+ fix. The details are in the Buell Superbike fourum.

I has several ongoing feud with him a Buell fourum.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/290431.html

They have an entire forum dedicated to chanrging issues so looks like TimeBandit is keeping things active over there.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/646530.html?1480222535


I logged in and did a search on Compufire.

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/search.cgi




There are several members that installed Compufire s on their Buells and it greatly extended the life of the stators. I have not been back in several years now.
The biggest issue with the Buell (based on Timebandit's data) is the bike is in thermal runaway and no matter what the R/R does teh stators cook.

He has accused me of being a shill for USMotoman because I listed them as the cheapest source back in 2010.
He ignored the fact that I listed the partnumber from another major supplier.
He also accused me of fabricating all of the scope charts in the Series v.s. MOSFET comparison.

He is tenacious, just misguided. This is about the time I quite paying any attention to this instrument the world approach to pseudo-engineering.

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/676583.html

Digging this stuff up is just spreading misinformation as it doesn't apply to GS's as it clear from the recent polls for SH-775 service history of installed units .

 

[Lorenzo]

Not surprised your grandpa rides one, or wears the t-shirts. They are built soft and slow for older folks.

post #42

Reading this thread backwards (a sign of interest) I came about this comment and could not resist posting this video.

Nor that I am an HD fan or have qualms with the poster, but sometimes you have to give Caesar what belongs to Caesar's...

 

[Gorminrider]

oh! well,I'll read those. Thanks! never came across them before...

Digging this stuff up is just spreading misinformation as it doesn't apply to GS's as it clear from the recent polls for SH-775 service history of installed units .

well, I missed a lot of the original debates. I don't see the problem with an occassional "refresh" . ....as to "clear from recent polls", I see 1 voter with 4000 miles on a compufire, 25 with SH775s that are "still good" (no mileage though) etc. So I am not super- convinced by these polls yet, given I more than 4000 miles all my shunt types (and my own-wound stator). But I know too from various posts that some have more than 4000 miles on their series-type.
And the combination of which stator combined with which R/R has a bearing on all this...it's all sort of moot to ME anyways, ( albeit interesting) because all my stators are "underwound".

thinking: IF the stator was better matched to the actual loads of the bike, it wouldn't need all this "shunting" or "stoppage". This seems an even better argument to me as LEDs take over from incandescents.

 

[posplayr]

oh! well,I'll read those. Thanks! never came across them before...


well, I missed a lot of the original debates. I don't see the problem with an occassional "refresh" . ....as to "clear from recent polls", I see 1 voter with 4000 miles on a compufire, 25 with SH775s that are "still good" (no mileage though) etc. So I am not super- convinced by these polls yet, given I more than 4000 miles all my shunt types (and my own-wound stator). But I know too from various posts that some have more than 4000 miles on their series-type.
And the combination of which stator combined with which R/R has a bearing on all this...it's all sort of moot to ME anyways, ( albeit interesting) because all my stators are "underwound".

thinking: IF the stator was better matched to the actual loads of the bike, it wouldn't need all this "shunting" or "stoppage". This seems an even better argument to me as LEDs take over from incandescents.

I'm the only one voted that my Compufire faild; it did not I just screwed up my selectuion.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?243944-Series-R-R-installations-at-the-GSR

 

[Gorminrider]

Yes, it's hard to hold a poll here, i guess. Good thing to bump it up and capture more results...anyways, thanks for the links I'll slog through em. Looks like someone's already been down every path.

 

[posplayr]

Yes, it's hard to hold a poll here, i guess. Good thing to bump it up and capture more results...anyways, thanks for the links I'll slog through em.

The poll is a living document and much more objective than some opinions.

 

[drewpy]

Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, but its been a few years, any consensus on the series shunt debate? I'm trying to decide between FH012AA and sh775 so I don't kill a lithium battery I was leaning towards (and sourced Real not fake sh775) but now ill see what everyone says (new to the GS world)

 

[Lorenzo]

No need to worry; posts in this board never die, they permeate the 'collective unconscious'...

On the subject, my I suggest you and all newcomers to the GS frame of mind, read a book, called, if I'm not mistaken "Jung and the art of motorcycle maintenance".

On a more prosaic note, go for the Shindengen but do it proppa, with the mandatory Furukawa connectors and the chopping of the green looped wire.

Welcome on board.

 

[Nessism]

No need to worry; posts in this board never die, they permeate the 'collective unconscious'...

On the subject, my I suggest you and all newcomers to the GS frame of mind, read a book, called, if I'm not mistaken "Jung and the art of motorcycle maintenance".

On a more prosaic note, go for the Shindengen but do it proppa, with the mandatory Furukawa connectors and the chopping of the green looped wire.

Welcome on board.

Shindengen makes both the FH012AA and the SH775, so I agree with your suggestion! Personally, I'd go for the SH775 under normal conditions, but with a lithium battery I'd do some more research first to understand how best to charge them. Some claim that voltage should be limited to 15 VDC for example, in which case both of these mentioned R/R's would be a bad choice.

 

[Steve]

In your case, it won't matter which one you get, it will be the wrong one for a Lithium battery. :-k

That is, unless there is something new in the Lithium battery world that allows them to use a "standard" charging system.

All of the lithium battery systems I have seen require a specialized charging curve that changes, depending on state of charge. Neither one of the R/R units you mention have that special curve.

What is your incentive for the Lithium battery? Hopefully it's not for the "weight savings". Yeah, it's always good to keep weight down, but based on your other posts, you have an 850, which is the heaviest GS made. Reducing its weight by 7 or 8 pounds will not make a noticeable difference. You will be better off getting a good AGM (that's construction style, not a brand name) battery and using the SH775 R/R.

.

 

[Lorenzo]

@Nessism sorry I did not specify: the SH775;
I agree with Steve also, on the matter of the battery; I've read enough literature to consider the AGM type, the best of both worlds. Some specimen with good reports by fellow bikers, point to a yellow cased one, incidentally with double posts (so two + and two - no need to bother the main wires for the odd ancillary install).

 

[Guest]

I ran a damaged stator with a Compu-Fire for a year before it finally failed. Series R/R's are definitely easy on stators.

 

[Grimly]

I ran a damaged stator with a Compu-Fire for a year before it finally failed. Series R/R's are definitely easy on stators.

Same here. I quite deliberately left in place an old stator which showed signs of being a bit heat-stressed from the OEM regulator, just to see how it would last with the SH-775. So far, it's still going strong.