Does the GS850GL have the same stator issues?

[ChopperCharles]

I keep reading about stator issues, but most of what I'm reading is the older model bikes. Was the stator/regulator problem still an issue with the 83 GS850GL? Thanks!

Charles.

 

[Dogma]

It's about as much of an issue as the earlier bikes. The stock shunt-type regulator will cook the stator it the connections in the charging circuit are corroded and causing excess resistance. It can happen in the space of a couple months, even here in the US Midwest.

Clean them and protect them. Check the charging system according to the stator papers frequently. I advocate installing a voltmeter so you can keep an eye on it.

 

[Planecrazy]

All the GS's (and many newer bikes) use the same basic charging system, so the same problems (and solutions) apply across the board...

Regards,

 

[posplayr]

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1302170&postcount=50

 

[ChopperCharles]

Connectors melt on the 84 Honda V65 Magna (and most Hondas of that era), but they don't take the stator or regulator out. Cut the connector off, solder the wires together, and keep right on going. I do this as a matter of course on all old Hondas, as the connector Honda used is way way too small for the amount of current going through the wires.

Ever since Honda did away with stator/rotor/brushes combinations (UGH DOHC CB750 was the WORST!), their permanent-magnet stators in an oil bath have been largely bulletproof.

Charles.

 

[Matchless]

Ever since Honda did away with stator/rotor/brushes combinations (UGH DOHC CB750 was the WORST!), their permanent-magnet stators in an oil bath have been largely bulletproof.

Charles.

Actually you have made an interesting comment. Honda tried to move from permanent magnet alternators with shunt regulating 30 years ago to those field regulated alternators which may have caused more headaches than people realize. Suzuki already used external field regulated alternators on the 1985 GSX-R750 and others which were much more reliable afaik.

Although some people seem to think that the GS charging system is of poor design, that is not correct. The permanent magnet, shunt regulator is fairly robust and takes up little space, uses less parts and can be manufactured cost efffectively and it has survived in the same form for more than 30 years on just about all makes of motorcycles and is even still used today.
The problems experienced these days are very much related to the age, wear and tear of the components and not so much to the design. Just think how many bikes out there are not experiencing charging problems - their owners are usually not reporting that, so such reports are usually given by owners who are unhappy.

Some people try and make a theoretical case as to inefficiency and low power output, but if space, weight or money was not an issue (which is an important factor on a motorcycle) then a proper automotive type alternator could have been used. This has already been used on larger more expensive bikes successfully.

The solution is to make sure that all the components, stator, regulator, battery, all wiring and all connectors are in good condition and is the same as the factory intended it to be, then the charging system should function reliably. Doing patchy repairs, amateurish modifications, overloading the electrical system and not fixing known problems will all eventually lead to problems.

I just ranted a bit to make it clear that our bikes are not plagued with electrical problems because of a poorly designed system, but more likely because of a 30 year old system which may not have been properly maintained or have been much abused over the years.

 

[koolaid_kid]

Matchless, I agree completely. I have an 83 GPz that also has a shunt regulator and a stator, and the stator is pristine. It was also very well maintained by the PO. One thing I did notice - the GPz does not allow oil into the stator area, it is sealed. I wonder if the introduction of oil (and the associated engine heat) has a negative effect on the stator.
My stator toasted itself this year; I just checked the headlight bucket and the stator wire that runs through there was toasted, and probably accelerated the stator death. That was my fault - I should have disconnected it when I purchased the bike back in 2004.

 

[tom203]

Although some people seem to think that the GS charging system is of poor design, that is not correct. The permanent magnet, shunt regulator is fairly robust and takes up little space, uses less parts and can be manufactured cost efffectively and it has survived in the same form for more than 30 years on just about all makes of motorcycles

The solution is to make sure that all the components, stator, regulator, battery, all wiring and all connectors are in good condition and is the same as the factory intended it to be, then the charging system should function reliably. Doing patchy repairs, amateurish modifications, overloading the electrical system and not fixing known problems will all eventually lead to problems.

I just ranted a bit to make it clear that our bikes are not plagued with electrical problems because of a poorly designed system, but more likely because of a 30 year old system which may not have been properly maintained or have been much abused over the years.

Ranting is good! I agree entirely- many approaches have been tried, but the simplicity of the permanent magnet revolving rotor still has its appeal today. But it's also good to have new ideas like compufire r/r's to mitigate the potential problems- the rpm range that these systems work in is demanding.

 

[raistian77]

Actually you have made an interesting comment. Honda tried to move from permanent magnet alternators with shunt regulating 30 years ago to those field regulated alternators which may have caused more headaches than people realize. Suzuki already used external field regulated alternators on the 1985 GSX-R750 and others which were much more reliable afaik.

Although some people seem to think that the GS charging system is of poor design, that is not correct. The permanent magnet, shunt regulator is fairly robust and takes up little space, uses less parts and can be manufactured cost efffectively and it has survived in the same form for more than 30 years on just about all makes of motorcycles and is even still used today.
The problems experienced these days are very much related to the age, wear and tear of the components and not so much to the design. Just think how many bikes out there are not experiencing charging problems - their owners are usually not reporting that, so such reports are usually given by owners who are unhappy.

Some people try and make a theoretical case as to inefficiency and low power output, but if space, weight or money was not an issue (which is an important factor on a motorcycle) then a proper automotive type alternator could have been used. This has already been used on larger more expensive bikes successfully.

The solution is to make sure that all the components, stator, regulator, battery, all wiring and all connectors are in good condition and is the same as the factory intended it to be, then the charging system should function reliably. Doing patchy repairs, amateurish modifications, overloading the electrical system and not fixing known problems will all eventually lead to problems.

I just ranted a bit to make it clear that our bikes are not plagued with electrical problems because of a poorly designed system, but more likely because of a 30 year old system which may not have been properly maintained or have been much abused over the years.

Could not agree more, I do believe the OEM R/R is too small for the task though. The only major complaint I have about the electrical system is the redundant running of wiring up and down the bike. Of course for the time that was a pretty much normal way of doing it.

 

[Planecrazy]

Actually you have made an interesting comment. Honda tried to move from permanent magnet alternators with shunt regulating 30 years ago to those field regulated alternators which may have caused more headaches than people realize. Suzuki already used external field regulated alternators on the 1985 GSX-R750 and others which were much more reliable afaik.

Although some people seem to think that the GS charging system is of poor design, that is not correct. The permanent magnet, shunt regulator is fairly robust and takes up little space, uses less parts and can be manufactured cost efffectively and it has survived in the same form for more than 30 years on just about all makes of motorcycles and is even still used today.
The problems experienced these days are very much related to the age, wear and tear of the components and not so much to the design. Just think how many bikes out there are not experiencing charging problems - their owners are usually not reporting that, so such reports are usually given by owners who are unhappy.

Some people try and make a theoretical case as to inefficiency and low power output, but if space, weight or money was not an issue (which is an important factor on a motorcycle) then a proper automotive type alternator could have been used. This has already been used on larger more expensive bikes successfully.

The solution is to make sure that all the components, stator, regulator, battery, all wiring and all connectors are in good condition and is the same as the factory intended it to be, then the charging system should function reliably. Doing patchy repairs, amateurish modifications, overloading the electrical system and not fixing known problems will all eventually lead to problems.

I just ranted a bit to make it clear that our bikes are not plagued with electrical problems because of a poorly designed system, but more likely because of a 30 year old system which may not have been properly maintained or have been much abused over the years.

I agree with most of what you've stated, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that agrees that the tiny OEM R/R in many GS's is of a "proper" design (as Raistian77 also just mentioned). Even when they seem to be working properly they're generally hot enough to do some serious damage if you touch 'em.

When you speak of "amatuerish mods" I don't know if you're referring to the fairly common custom of replacing these inadequate R/R's with larger Honda/Shindengen units (or more expensive "series" units), but I personally believe that this mod is one of the most intelligent changes that can be made to our GS's.

It goes without saying, however, that one should attend to all the other probable issues in a thirty year old wiring system, but all else being equal there's no question that the little OEM R/R was not one of Suzuki's brightest ideas.

Regards,

 

[posplayr]

There certainly is a simplicity and elegance in the PM 3 phase generators. Now when you couple that with a SHUNT R/R of any kind you are taking your chances depending up how you ride.

The stators will get hot and it will last a long time, but if you ride too hot for too long you will get an accelerated failure (like annual stator replacements).

It is a marginal situation and I suspect there are differences between all combinations of stator (OE, Ricks, Electrosport , etc) as they are all wound a little different and the difference between OE, Honda and FET R/R are all slightly different, so depending upon how you ride and your particular combination you might be getting an acceptable lifetime out of your charging system or NOT. That is marginal, and any suggestion it is not is ignoring all the people burning up stators.

Bear in mind, there is nothing fundamentally different between a GS charging system and the many other PM multi phase systems, so the GS charging is not to be called out as defective above all others.

Cost effective?? Yes, that is why it is installed on all teh various manufacturers bikes.

Reliable???, NO the SHUNT R/R is just too suceptable to connector resistance and too stressful on the stator.

I have fully fired a new stator in about 8K miles on my ED which is the same bike I used to do alot of the initial R/R tests. I also came very close to cooking an new electrosport stator (in 250 mile it was brown) while still using a FET R/R. I dont ride my GS750 as much but it doesnt seem to be having a problem and I also dont ride it as hard.

I have had some people suggest that the Electrosport stator that started to burn up in 250 miles was defective, were that is a rash conclusion that some members have leapt to without considering the evidence. Using the exact same stator and exact same FET R/R with only spraying more oil on the stator I arrested any of the continuing browning of the stator, and with a switch to a SERIES Compufire I'm pushing about 4K miles probably on this setup with no issues and no change in the initially burned stator.

So to the punch line is ,there is just too much burnt epoxy/powder coat to suggest that these stators are not being stressed by a large percentage (at least 1/2 of ) all riders to the point there is premature failure due to SHUNT regulation.

People can take their chances and use a SHUNT R/R; I would even suggest a 6 wire Honda if the installer can figure out a good location for a 6th wire. But the first time you are changing a cooked stator and especially if there is nothing wrong with your R/R I would strongly suggest going SERIES R/R as you will be in there again changing the stator after you slowly cook it off.

The 3 phase PM stator with the SERIES R/R is really the optimium in simplicity and elegance for a motorcycle charging system.

The END

 

[Graham]

Actually you have made an interesting comment. Honda tried to move from permanent magnet alternators with shunt regulating 30 years ago to those field regulated alternators which may have caused more headaches than people realize. Suzuki already used external field regulated alternators on the 1985 GSX-R750 and others which were much more reliable afaik.

Although some people seem to think that the GS charging system is of poor design, that is not correct. The permanent magnet, shunt regulator is fairly robust and takes up little space, uses less parts and can be manufactured cost efffectively and it has survived in the same form for more than 30 years on just about all makes of motorcycles and is even still used today.
The problems experienced these days are very much related to the age, wear and tear of the components and not so much to the design. Just think how many bikes out there are not experiencing charging problems - their owners are usually not reporting that, so such reports are usually given by owners who are unhappy.

Some people try and make a theoretical case as to inefficiency and low power output, but if space, weight or money was not an issue (which is an important factor on a motorcycle) then a proper automotive type alternator could have been used. This has already been used on larger more expensive bikes successfully.

The solution is to make sure that all the components, stator, regulator, battery, all wiring and all connectors are in good condition and is the same as the factory intended it to be, then the charging system should function reliably. Doing patchy repairs, amateurish modifications, overloading the electrical system and not fixing known problems will all eventually lead to problems.

I just ranted a bit to make it clear that our bikes are not plagued with electrical problems because of a poorly designed system, but more likely because of a 30 year old system which may not have been properly maintained or have been much abused over the years.

Well said. Factory is the way to go on the charging system. Just had a 81 550L leave the shop and the stator cover screws havn't got a scratch on them. My 83 1100gl has a good charging system too. That's 2 good stators.

 

[tom203]

"People can take their chances and use a SHUNT R/R; I would even suggest a 6 wire Honda if the installer can figure out a good location for a 6th wire. But the first time you are changing a cooked stator and especially if there is nothing wrong with your R/R I would strongly suggest going SERIES R/R as you will be in there again changing the stator after you slowly cook it off."

I left my original r/r on when I replaced my stator (with another 27 yearold stator)- it gave good readings and was sized like a Shendengen and mounted in a good airflow location - under airbox just above swingarm. I'm surprised to see smaller r/r's in cramped locations in lots of pics here- the r/r needs to dissipate heat! The Compufire is a great idea and I hope it proves to be reliable.

 

[Planecrazy]

Just had a 81 550L leave the shop and the stator cover screws havn't got a scratch on them.

Perhaps that's because the mangled ones were replaced, maybe several times...

For the record, I had a 1980 GS550L that never had any charging problems, but I have two 1100's that do. My rider (GS1100G) had a R/R that stopped regulating (and charging), but luckily replacing it with a more capable (read larger - more effective heat sink) Honda/Shindengen unit has corrected the problem...

Regards,

 

[duaneage]

It's about as much of an issue as the earlier bikes. The stock shunt-type regulator will cook the stator it the connections in the charging circuit are corroded and causing excess resistance. It can happen in the space of a couple months, even here in the US Midwest.

Clean them and protect them. Check the charging system according to the stator papers frequently. I advocate installing a voltmeter so you can keep an eye on it.

I'm not convinced corroded connections cause the RR to fail. I've handled hundreds of old Honda RRs with the worst connectors imaginable and they all still worked. If corrosion is the cause trumpeted so often, why doesn't corrosion cause the Honda RRs to go bad?

 

[tkent02]

I'm not convinced corroded connections cause the RR to fail. I've handled hundreds of old Honda RRs with the worst connectors imaginable and they all still worked. If corrosion is the cause trumpeted so often, why doesn't corrosion cause the Honda RRs to go bad?

Better design that compensates for resistance in the wiring better?
Aren't you are supposed to be the expert here?

All I know is I've never seen a failure in a bike with nice clean wiring.

 

[posplayr]

Better design that compensates for resistance in the wiring better?
Aren't you are supposed to be the expert here?

All I know is I've never seen a failure in a bike with nice clean wiring.

yea the 6th sense wire compensates for most resistance issues on the positive side which includes that (+) portion of the harness as well as the fuse box.

On the (-) side, depending upon how the grounds are handled on the Honda motorcycle (probably much better than the Suzuki OE design) and how the transplanted Honda R/R is installed (usually with extra grounds as per GSR recommendations) those circumstances could easily account for the improved performance and the perception that there are no connection issues with a Honda Unit.

If the Honda R/R is a balanced design (SCR's on each stator leg) then it will put less stress on the stator (those that control only one leg short one stator leg to control the overall power rather than distributing the pain. Also it could be that the Resistance of the Honda doesn't allow as much current to flow when shorted so there is an additional benefit (this is possible; I did not analyze the Honda unit that closely).

 

[Graham]

I'm not convinced corroded connections cause the RR to fail. I've handled hundreds of old Honda RRs with the worst connectors imaginable and they all still worked. If corrosion is the cause trumpeted so often, why doesn't corrosion cause the Honda RRs to go bad?

Good point. Kawasaki and Yamaha don’t have corrosion problems either. Owners cause most of the electrical problems at my shop. They pay $65 an hour because they tried to install lights, radios or something else.