Flat battery - why?

[reddirtrider]

Run all three stator wires straight to the R/R. Keep the headlight on. (safer anyways) Problem solved.

That's probably the best bet.

Something that is overlooked on this mod, however, is that the R/R will need to shunt more current to ground and may get a little hotter.

 

[Guest]

Something that is overlooked on this mod, however, is that the R/R will need to shunt more current to ground and may get a little hotter.

you mean, in case i run with the headlight off?

 

[Matchless]

psyguy,
If you already have a better R/R fitted such as the Honda units, usually meaning a higher capacity one than the original OEM R/R, you should not have any problems riding with lights on or off.
That approach actually reduced the charging current by a third with the lights off and so did not overtax a slightly low rated OEM R/R.

I think when Suzuki introduced the third phase to be switched on when the headlights are on, they actually used a lower capacity R/R and that may be part of the reason why so many of those gave problems and the Honda units were/are much more bullet proof although they are made by the same manufacturer. Any 25 A or even better 35 A rated R/R will be quite safe with the lights off at times as well, but 20 A and smaller becomes a bit dicey. A 16 A will get quite hot with lights off, but may be OK with lights on and an old battery, but is more likely to fail over time. Some people have even fitted fans to the R/R's. reddirtrider is correct if you still have the old OEM fitted or a low current rated one.

If you do not know the capacity, manually checking them for heat after a ride with the lights off and battery fully charged will guide you. If it burns your fingers it needs to be uprated, if just warm to the touch you should be OK.
If you ever replace it, get the highest current rated R/R, thus from the larger bikes.

 

[Steve]

Let the headlight draw off the battery point if it needs it, ...

Actually the headlight ALWAYS draws off "the battery point".

On the older bikes that actually had a working headlight switch, there were two sets of contacts. One set controlled power from the battery (actually the fuse box) to the headlight, the other was in the third leg of the stator. The stator NEVER powered the headlight directly. If it did, you would need special bulbs that would work on input voltages that ranged from about 20 to 90, with no problems.

Interestingly enough, I found on a previous bike that the third leg of the stator put out just a bit more power than the headlight consumed. I had a voltmeter connected to the battery and found that the voltage was higher (battery charging better) when the headlight (and the third stator leg) was ON.

Overall, you are better off by connecting your stator directly to your r/r, whether you use new bullet connectors, new spade connectors or solder and heat-shrink. If your bike also has a working headlight switch, just keep in mind that your headlight should also be ON most of the time to minimize how much the r/r has to work, although it is nice to be able to turn the light off if you are in very slow traffic. This will help keep the battery charged at lower engine speeds. The best idea is to mount a voltmeter of some sort to the bike so you can keep an eye on the system.

.

 

[flyingace]

In looking at the diagrams for bikes with light switches, I see the wire routed from the stator goes thru a seperate switch in the headlight switch housing, not thru the light itself. That seperate switch simply routes the current back to the R/R only if the headlight is on.

I think it is a common misconception that since the stator wire goes to the headlight switch, that the current from it goes thru the headlight. Steve is right, that wouldn't work.
The whole point of the arrangement is to insure you don't overcharge the battery while running without the headlight.

In this case, the opposite is happening. I would have to wonder if the wire from the headlight switch to the R/R is carrying current back to the R/R. In other words, the headlight switch is working and the headlight is on, but no voltage is being delivered to the R/R from the stator leg going thru the headlight switch.

It makes a degree of sense since the headlight would be on, but only two legs of the stator would be delivering voltage. This appears to be the W/R wire into the R/R.

If you've already tested all the leads going into the R/R, then disregard this diatribe. In any event, I agree with just hooking up the wire routed thru the headlight directly to the R/R. But I'm glad I finally got this figured out.

 

[Steve]

Oh, they could run on AC. Filament-type bulbs don't care if it's AC or DC that feeds them, as long as they get plenty of what they need.

Ace, it's entirely possible that you have a loose or bad connection in that loop, simply because there are so many connections. Starting with the stator wire, there is the connection into the main harness (connection #1). That wire goes to a large connector under the tank where it meets another wire (connection #2). If you have a headlight switch, that wire goes to the switch (connection #3), then comes back to the connector under the tank (connection #4), back into the main harness and finally the connection to the r/r (connection #5). In my opinion, that is simply too many chances for a problem to arise. It is far better to have just ONE connection from stator to r/r. :dancing:

p.s. Enumerating the connections above does not even take into account the actual interface from copper wire to brass connector, then, on the other side of the connector, going back to the copper wire. If you count all those interfaces, there are more like 15 places where corrosion can set in.
.

 

[flyingace]

Oh, they could run on AC. Filament-type bulbs don't care if it's AC or DC that feeds them, as long as they get plenty of what they need.

Ace, it's entirely possible that you have a loose or bad connection in that loop, simply because there are so many connections. Starting with the stator wire, there is the connection into the main harness (connection #1). That wire goes to a large connector under the tank where it meets another wire (connection #2). If you have a headlight switch, that wire goes to the switch (connection #3), then comes back to the connector under the tank (connection #4), back into the main harness and finally the connection to the r/r (connection #5). In my opinion, that is simply too many chances for a problem to arise. It is far better to have just ONE connection from stator to r/r. :dancing:

p.s. Enumerating the connections above does not even take into account the actual interface from copper wire to brass connector, then, on the other side of the connector, going back to the copper wire. If you count all those interfaces, there are more like 15 places where corrosion can set in.
.

Actually, as I re-read the posts of PSYGUY, he said that the wire from the headlight switch to the R/R did not have voltage. So - yep, he's shorting out somewhere in that circuit. But the solution doesn't change.

The only thing I would consider doing would be to have a good look at the headlight switch. If the problem originates from there, corrsosion may be eating into it.

 

[Guest]

thanks fellas, learned a lot in this last venture - it's amazing how i've read all you've said already in the past posts on the forum but it wasn't untill i actually had a problem on MY bike that i now understand the theory much better than before.

as i have an upgraded rr i'll opt for a direct connection of all stator wires directly to the rr. i certainly don't fancy chasing all the connections in the stator-headlight-rr loop.
​

and when i'm done with the new setup i'll adopt the following hands-on measuring approach: :-\\\

If you do not know the rr capacity, manually checking them for heat after a ride with the lights off and battery fully charged will guide you. If it burns your fingers it needs to be uprated, if just warm to the touch you should be OK.

choice!

 

[posplayr]

thanks fellas, learned a lot in this last venture - it's amazing how i've read all you've said already in the past posts on the forum but it wasn't untill i actually had a problem on MY bike that i now understand the theory much better than before.

as i have an upgraded rr i'll opt for a direct connection of all stator wires directly to the rr. i certainly don't fancy chasing all the connections in the stator-headlight-rr loop.
​

and when i'm done with the new setup i'll adopt the following hands-on measuring approach: :-\\\



choice!

Heat can also be a symptom of poor connections not just overload of the R/R. In fact the R/R will get hotter from shunting current back to the stator rather than to the load.

Heat is an indication of a problem not necessarily excessive load current. In fact if no loads have change you are more likely to just have bad connections

 

[Guest]

Recap and update

Recap and update

• new battery, 13.4V off the charger, holds charge well
• honda rr with the sense wire spliced into the main switched wire (coming from the ignition switch). rr + and - directly to the battery.
• stator all three legs read 80+ V at 5000rpm
• one stator leg going through the headlight switch was dead so i now connected all three legs directly to the rr

charging data at a constant 5000rmp:

• headlight off - 14.8V and steady
• headlight ON - voltage drops to under 14V and keeps falling to under 13V within a few minutes (i stopped testing at that point) - results even worse with the high beam (standard H4 bulb)

needless to say the sob is driving me crazy

thanks for the help so far

 

[Guest]

so, where to from here?

 

[posplayr]

#1 The first thing I would do is to remove sense wire location as an issue by directly connecting the sense wire to the battery + terminal (at least temporarily).


#2 measure the voltage drop in the connections directly when you have the headamp on and are getting the loss of regulation.

As per the revised stator pages (I recently updated), the only way to be sure you don't have charging issues is to confirm the voltage drops between R/R and battery at 5000 RPM.

measure Step#2 and #3

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/Stator_Papers_Phase%20A.pdfhttp://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com..._Phase A.pdf

 

[KiwiGS]

Starting to look like you have a "near" short to earth in the lighting circuit.
I am guessing that you have checked the connections.
Might also be worth checking for a wire that has rubbed through the insulation and is touching another wire or the painted frame etc.
No doubt the experts will tell me I am wrong, but I had similar a problem and when I ran a new lighting circuit the problem went away.
Cheers

 

[posplayr]

Starting to look like you have a "near" short to earth in the lighting circuit.
I am guessing that you have checked the connections.
Might also be worth checking for a wire that has rubbed through the insulation and is touching another wire or the painted frame etc.
No doubt the experts will tell me I am wrong, but I had similar a problem and when I ran a new lighting circuit the problem went away.
Cheers

That could be the problem, but the measured symptoms would be low voltage drops between battery and R/R and a decreasing voltage at both R/R and battery.

 

[Markus Likeus]

I don't know if this will be of help but here goes. Last week I had nearly the same problem with my 83 GS1100GL. My battery was on the old side and it had cranked slow that morning but started. About three blocks from the house it quit running. I put a new battery in that afternoon, started right up and drove home. Latter that evening I went to start and the battery was dead. Pulled the left cover and only 0.10 volts on the DVM. Then I noticed the rubber boot covering the stator leads had melted and the stator wiring had burned open at the electrical connectors. I recharged the battery, repaired the stator connectors and ran the stator and RR tests, everything checked OK. You might take a look at the stator connectors. I guessing here but I think bad connections coupled with a battery that readily accepted the bikes output charge cause the connector to heat up and burn open and then the RR wires shorted and drained the battery. I'm still mystified and my guess my be way off but I do not seem to have any problems.

 

[Guest]

#1 The first thing I would do is to remove sense wire location as an issue by directly connecting the sense wire to the battery + terminal (at least temporarily).


#2 measure the voltage drop in the connections directly when you have the headamp on and are getting the loss of regulation.

As per the revised stator pages (I recently updated), the only way to be sure you don't have charging issues is to confirm the voltage drops between R/R and battery at 5000 RPM.

measure Step#2 and #3

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/Stator_Papers_Phase%20A.pdfhttp://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/Stator_Papers_Phase A.pdfhttp://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/Stator_Papers_Phase A.pdf

thanks posplyr!

now, forgive my ignorance, but:

1. i have the rr wires connected directly to the battery - so, do i still need to test steps #2 and #3 from your stator papers?

2. if i connect the sense wire directly to the battery is that not going to slowly drain the battery?

 

[Guest]

thanks posplyr!

now, forgive my ignorance, but:

1. i have the rr wires connected directly to the battery - so, do i still need to test steps #2 and #3 from your stator papers?

2. if i connect the sense wire directly to the battery is that not going to slowly drain the battery?

That is a temporary connection for testing.

 

[posplayr]

thanks posplyr!

now, forgive my ignorance, but:

1. i have the rr wires connected directly to the battery - so, do i still need to test steps #2 and #3 from your stator papers?

2. if i connect the sense wire directly to the battery is that not going to slowly drain the battery?

I don't know how you can directly connect the R/R to the battery without using some sort of connector . On the plus side you should also have a fuse/fuse box. If you get down to a straight piece of wire that is less than 1 foot long I would figure the same voltage at both ends but not if it has a connection on it.

So do you have any connections or fuses to connect the R/R to the battery? If so, Stab the center of the battery post (with a test lead) and put the other end as close to the R/R housing as you can get. A 0.1 ohms resistance with 10 amps could cause a drop of 1 full volt which could explain the problem.

And please do not use an ohm meter to check for resistance, it can be used to detect a problem but it is inconclusive for a positive test (i.e. no issues). The modified stator pages does a loaded voltage test to indicate if there is excessive resistance.

This should be a simple process of elimination and not a big mystery. When I reworked the stator pages, I confirmed (as best I could) that all possible failure scenarios would be detected given those basic test steps. I would be real surprised if a methodical progression through the steps would not be able to diagnose the true failure.

The only deviation is as Bill said to take the Honda R/R sense wire out of the equation (temporarily) by connecting directly to the battery. That will not cause discharge unless left off for an extended period (1 week). Since you plan to ride and test that will have no bearing.

Ironically having a little resistance would allow me to diagnose by evaluating the voltage combinations at the R/R and battery.

Sorry to be anal, but I can't see your physical layout and the process I outlined should detect the failure.

 

[Guest]

thanks posplyr, i only ask because i like to learn as i work on this bike.

off testing now

 

[Guest]

Further testing

Further testing

• connected the rr sense wire directly to the batt +. that made NO difference to the charging readings.
• measured rr positive lead voltage drop : 0.13V
• measured rr negative lead voltage drop : 0.10V