Has anyone ever installed a kick stand kill switch???

[YoungGunRodder]

GS'rs,

Since riding my new bike i have twice forgotten to pull up the kickstand. As nothing has happen thus far (or because i noticed prior to anything happening) has anyone ever installed a kick stand kill switch or anti start switch?

I know that new bikes have it setup so you cannot start the bike into first gear unless the kick stand is up, but is there a way to do it with ours?

Also i have seen in some posts that there might be an indicator light in the cluster, Is this true for all bikes? I have a 1980 750E

 

[mighty13d]

I have an 82 850G that had a side stand switch on it. It could be wired up to the kill switch from the handlebars and there you go. simple and easy. side stand down=engine won't run, side stand up=engine will run. You just won't be able to let it warm up without either putting it on the center stand or sitting on it.

 

[Dan Ruddock]

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=143436

Dan

 

[Pete Logan]

Also i have seen in some posts that there might be an indicator light in the cluster, Is this true for all bikes? I have a 1980 750E

My '82 750E has exactly that. Just a sidestand down indicator light. Does not prevent you from riding away.

My wife's 1997 GN125 allows you to start with the sidestand down if you pull the clutch, but kills the engine if you shift into gear with the stand down. That fooled me a couple times

 

[fenderfreek]

If you want to wire in a cutoff, it should involve the sidestand switch and the neutral light. Once you take it out of neutral, and the sidestand is on, it cuts off.

You can do it with two relays that have NO and NC circuits (an SPDT relay) -

Each relay coil is wired into the appropriate light/switch circuit, so that when the light for sidestand or neutral would be activated, the relay is actuated. We'll call the neutral relay A(R.A), and the sidestand relay B(R.B). You'll just split the ignition wire and insert the following -

Switched input of A is connected to ignition wire. The normally closed(off, default) side of the relay output goes to the input of relay B. The normally open(on, actuated) side of relay A goes out toward the coil or your coil relay mod sense.

On relay B, the normally closed(off, default) side goes out and combines with the other output wire. The normally open side is left unused.

........._____.........._____
Ign.====|.....|N_C=====|.....|N_C========Coil/Coil Relay
........| R.A |........| R.B |......./
........|_____|N_O-....|_____|....../
...................\_______________/

Input table:

A | B | o
---------
0 | 0 | 1 - neutral off, sidestand off, run
0 | 1 | 0 - neutral off, sidestand on, shutoff
1 | 0 | 1 - neutral on, sidestand off, run
1 | 1 | 1 - neutral on, sidestand on, run

A capacitor on the output side wouldn't hurt to buffer the transitions, but I would only do that with the relay mod, nit the stock config.

 

[YoungGunRodder]

That sound great. Just like i'm used to with modern bikes. Safety with a mix of convenience.

Are these electrical items ones you can get from an autozone or hardware store? Or is it something that is special order?

I have a friend who can wire it for me, i would just want to have everything ready for him.



[/QUOTE]
A | B | o
---------
0 | 0 | 1 - neutral off, sidestand off, run
0 | 1 | 0 - neutral off, sidestand on, shutoff
1 | 0 | 1 - neutral on, sidestand off, run
1 | 1 | 1 - neutral on, sidestand on, run

A capacitor on the output side wouldn't hurt to buffer the transitions, but I would only do that with the relay mod, nit the stock config.[/QUOTE]

 

[tkent02]

Warning light, even a buzzer if you need it is OK.
Anything that kills the engine is just asking for trouble, if it erroneously kills the engine at a time when you are depending on it.
Sounds like a very dangerous safety device.

 

[fenderfreek]

Warning light, even a buzzer if you need it is OK.
Anything that kills the engine is just asking for trouble, if it erroneously kills the engine at a time when you are depending on it.
Sounds like a very dangerous safety device.

This is a very valid point, but on the flipside, it's a feature that plenty of other bikes do just fine. You'll have to decide whether you trust the electronics to not die at the absolute most inconvenient possible time.

The relays for it are pretty common and should be available at most auto parts places. Just make sure you get the 5 pin ones that are SPDT, not the SPST.

 

[posplayr]

This is a very valid point, but on the flipside, it's a feature that plenty of other bikes do just fine. You'll have to decide whether you trust the electronics to not die at the absolute most inconvenient possible time.

The relays for it are pretty common and should be available at most auto parts places. Just make sure you get the 5 pin ones that are SPDT, not the SPST.

The point is very valid; there is a member here (Tone I believe) that had a Friend high side on a high speed sweeper into on coming traffic when a relay powered ignition failed.

It can happen; any people are running coil mods relays.

The critical issue however are:
a.) how reliable the parts are
b.) failure mechanisms
c.) how things fail.


I designed a complete safety interlock system that involved both side stand, neutral, and clutch. It is most reliable to have the ignition powered by a relay that is normally closed and actively disable that circuit when the kick stand is down. That way if the kickstand down switch were to fail the ignition remains unaffected.

Also some relays are better than others and commonality doesn't make them more reliable just cheaper.

My link for your consideration:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=143674

 

[Pete Logan]

I designed a complete safety interlock system that involved both side stand, neutral, and clutch. It is most reliable to have the ignition powered by a relay that is normally closed and actively disable that circuit when the kick stand is down. That way if the kickstand down switch were to fail the ignition remains unaffected.

That's the key point.

Any system should fail to 'safe'.

Any system that fails to anything else is just a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Speedo]

Aw come-on guys. These are old bikes. How about old time values (which still apply to modern tech today btw)? Like LOOK THE F*CK DOWN before rolling away. Like EVERY time, no exceptions.

The best "safety device" ever made is YOUR BRAIN. USE IT!!!
Yeah you can wire up whatever you can imagine (as the factories indeed have), but you can't wire up common sense.

So how about skip the hours of posts/wiring diagrams/discussions on 'how to do it' as far as kick stand kill switch etc and focus that energy on riding/improving your riding, and perhaps improving the rest of your none-motorcycle life [hey i'm an old guy so I am allowed (i.e. I "allowed myself") to rant]....

 

[posplayr]

So how about skip the hours of posts/wiring diagrams/discussions on 'how to do it' as far as kick stand kill switch etc and focus that energy on riding/improving your riding, and perhaps improving the rest of your none-motorcycle life [hey i'm an old guy so I am allowed (i.e. I "allowed myself") to rant]....

You take too much liberty.

In system design there is a presumption of humans making errors. Errors should not result in injury or death (to an acceptable risk level). However, the addition of a safety feature needs to make the system more safe not less. That is the challenge.

BTW most of the safety features described are available in more modern bikes as standard equipment. Much of the safety functionality I described are standard on the 2nd Gen GSXR (that is what I studied to understand Suzuki's later safety implementations).

 

[posplayr]

That's the key point.

Any system should fail to 'safe'.

Any system that fails to anything else is just a disaster waiting to happen.

Thanks for making that more obvious. I have been an engineer so long that the criticality of "fail-safe" design is presumed.

 

[Skateguy50]

all sounds pretty interesting but I prefer less wires than more on my bike

Also I prefer to start the bike, and then put my gear on while it warms up. Unless its 40s out by the time I got my stuff on the bike is ready to roll but still would not want to have to do that wait sitting on the bike.

I have had my engine cut at 75mph 2 lanes away from the shoulder on the highway fully packed .... make that over packed for camping. It was a wire that got pinched under the seat and shorted causing a few blown fuses. Regardless i would prefer to have as few reasons as possible for that happening again.

 

[fenderfreek]

The point is very valid; there is a member here (Tone I believe) that had a Friend high side on a high speed sweeper into on coming traffic when a relay powered ignition failed.

It can happen; any people are running coil mods relays.

The critical issue however are:
a.) how reliable the parts are
b.) failure mechanisms
c.) how things fail.


I designed a complete safety interlock system that involved both side stand, neutral, and clutch. It is most reliable to have the ignition powered by a relay that is normally closed and actively disable that circuit when the kick stand is down. That way if the kickstand down switch were to fail the ignition remains unaffected.

Also some relays are better than others and commonality doesn't make them more reliable just cheaper.

My link for your consideration:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=143674

Much more elegant solution than mine, I must say. Well thought out.

 

[Speedo]

You take too much liberty.

In system design there is a presumption of humans making errors. Errors should not result in injury or death (to an acceptable risk level). However, the addition of a safety feature needs to make the system more safe not less. That is the challenge.

Point taken. I have to say however that I now own a)a chevy truck that automatically turns its light on/off, must be in Park to turn ignition on, and has all electric windows, doors, etc., also automatically locks the doors after 10 seconds of driving, b)an acura with all of the above EXCEPT no auto lights so you have to actually turn your lights on/off manually, c)a '96 and an '00 porsche which have various "idiot proof" goodies but not the lights, and d)my '78 F150 and my '78 GS750 with have "automatic" NOTHING.

Know what? I NEVER forget to turn my lights on in the dark on the none auto vehicles. Why? Because I CAN'T SEE SH*T without them, that's why. And I never forget to close the doors, I never forgot to use the manual window cranks on my F150, never forgot to manually push the choke "off" on my GS750. Why? Because window won't go down if you forget. Because bike runs like crap if you leave choke engaged.

Have we lost all confidence in our own god-given common sense and survival instinct? Please someone argue with me/converse/convince me otherwise...PLEASE...don't make me beg:hand:

Indulge me and let me tell you a story or this "safety" concept run amok:

My '96 porsche 911 (95-98 were last of the air cooled 911. '99 they went to water-cooled which continue to this day and are fine cars btw) took the auto "fail-safe" thing to its extreme. It has the smartest dumbest "security" system ever invented by man. In order to start the car, the driver's door has to be locked and unlocked by means of the SAME method (i.e. either key or elec key fob switch) AND within one minute of locking/unlocking, or the car will not start.
Sound great right? Well how often do you LOCK your car when you park in your garage? Right, never. So next day, hop in your 911, turn key and NOTHING. You have to LOCK doors, then UNLOCK doors and turn ig key within 1 minute or starter will not work. wow, how "smart" is that?

And it gets better. I your key fob battery happens to die, and you figure "hey, why not just USE THE KEY to open the driver's door?", the alarm goes off and will not stop because the system is set up such that whatever LOCKED the door last (ie be it hardware key or elec key fob switch) MUST BE USED to open door or else the alarm goes off. Now it doesn't take a genius to conjure a common scenario that will cause owners nightmares AND embarassment AND expensive tows: you get out of car, lock it electronically with key fob. The battery in fob goes dead. You think "no big deal I have an actual KEY", unlock car with key, get in, go to start car with key, and instead of starting, the theft alarm goes off and WILL NOT STOP without some codes from Porsche dealer and/or get new battery for key fob (remember: it's dead, which is why you used key to begin with) to swich alarm off and which IS THE ONLY WAY TO SWITCH ALARM OFF.

So in other words, you will watch your car get towed all while the alarm is going off until the battery dies inplying that you are stealing your own car and there is NOT ONE GD THING you can do about it unless you manifest a new battery for your key fob or get your local Porsche dealer out of bed at 10pm after that nice dinner date you just had to get the manual code to disable.

Now, I'm certainly not the smartest guy in teh world, but how dumb is that?
Not to mention that system is so propriety and "bullet proof" that THERE IS NO WORKAROUND / no private "chip" or anything available to disable this evil electronic "safety" feature. And we all know there are many many really smart people out there who would be happy to make a buck while helping people/improving something. Nothing. Noone has come up with a workaround. Because on top of everything else, the system was designed with a "mission impossible SELF destruct" mechanism if you mess with it X number of times (i think 3 times), the whole thing blows up, won't work, and you have to replace the whole system through the porsche dealer.

This system was so "evil", "unfixable", and user-unfriendly and so many porsche owners complained between 1995 and 1998 (only 3 yrs mind you) when they used this system, that porsche actually changed it and toned it WAY down for 1999 and after models.

Wow, that's a lot of BS above (sorry), my point? THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR BRAINS AND COMMON SENSE.

If you're dumb, we can't help you.

No amount of idiot lights, gauges, neutral safety switches, clutch must be engaged for starter to work switches, automatic headlights, idiot light to tell you kick stand on your bike is still down, will prevent you from ultimately doing something so stupid that it will threaten your life or better just the life of your vehicle.

Amen.

 

[posplayr]

Much more elegant solution than mine, I must say. Well thought out.

Thanks for that complement; For something as critical as safety provisions, I did not want to suggest anything unsafe.

I think I worked up through several combinations of capability to finally arrive at this full up configuration.

 

[Pete Logan]

No amount of idiot lights, gauges, neutral safety switches, clutch must be engaged for starter to work switches, automatic headlights, idiot light to tell you kick stand on your bike is still down, will prevent you from ultimately doing something so stupid that it will threaten your life or better just the life of your vehicle.

Amen.

I agree with that. But it's a minority view.

The reality is that 96% of the sheeple in the world DO need safety systems to keep them from dying of their own stupidity.

Not a view that is terribly popular, but if we wanted to be popular we probably wouldn't be living the lives we do

 

[Guest]

The solution to not forgetting is to just remember. That's some circular logic that I see often when the discussion turns to remembering to shut off blinkers or put up kick stands.

If your memory and concentration are that good now, just wait a few years, or get distracted for some reason while your sitting parked on your bike.

Jim, again thanks for all the knowledge and support you bring to this site.

 

[posplayr]

The solution to not forgetting is to just remember. That's some circular logic that I see often when the discussion turns to remembering to shut off blinkers or put up kick stands.

If your memory and concentration are that good now, just wait a few years, or get distracted for some reason while your sitting parked on your bike.

Jim, again thanks for all the knowledge and support you bring to this site.

Thanks Tom.

With the responses I get sometimes I have to wonder why I even bother? Some even suggest I'm espousing to show how smart I am with insinuations I'm speaking above the audience. Well that is not my intent, but rather to make issues/solutions as plain as possible.

I have come to understand that while there maybe initial resistance to my work (especially when it is controversial), that it is usually just a matter of time before it is accepted. I'm now referring to my work which even if indirect, is as a senior consulting system engineer for US Army programs. So I can hardly expect to get no resistance here at GSR. I just have to be patient.

At least I wont get in trouble here at GSR for making a technical argument contrary to the political powers. :lol:

Jim