I could really use some electrical mentorship.

[wkmpt]

Is there anyone in the Chicago area that has a solid grasp on the electrical systems of GS's, that would be willing to come and help me trouble shoot my bike? I don't have much to offer, maybe some soda/adult bevvies, some gas money, and eternal gratitude, but I'm hoping that might be enough...

I attempted the coil relay mod today. I followed posplayr's guide for bikes with Dyna-s, have triple-checked my work and it's all connected as shown in the tutorial, but I'm no longer getting spark. As of this moment I look at the bike and all I see is angry spaghetti that makes me want to quit.

I'm just fed up and frustrated, it should work and it doesn't. I understand the stock elec. diagram for my bike, I understand where and how the modifications I've performed fit into the scheme. I don't understand why it's not working on the bike. I'm in over my head, and I need help.

So if there's any Samaritans out there that would be willing to come here and help me out, I'm in Batavia, I'm pretty sure I have all the tools present to do the job, and a very open schedule.

 

[posplayr]

If you can get someone to help that would be great, but alternatively take some pictures of what you did so I can get some idea of the connections. If you just followed mine then fine. Get a decent VOM and just go through some basic debugging by measuring the following.

1.) When your key is on do you have +11-12V to the coils??
If No:
do you have switched +12V (switch it on and off with the right hand switch) to the Pin 86 of the relay
do you have ground on Pin 85 of the relay
do you have fused +12V on Pin30
do you have a relay switched source when you switch you right hand control

If yes we start checking the Dyna S connections; do the above first.

 

[Marine36]

Double check your relay. It may be bad or switched terminals may be closed when 12v not applied and open when power applied. It is not uncommon for coils to be bad and not function at all. As an electrician I see bad coils right out of the box on many different types of relays. If you can post a pic of the relay and its diagram plus your wiring I might be able to help. Unfortunately I am in the St. Louis area not Chi town.

 

[wkmpt]

Okay, here's what I have verified:
A-Keyed ignition on, 11+ volts at coils.
B-Relay pin 86 on the IS connected to the Right hand (kill) switch.
C-Relay pin 85 is grounded to the battery (-) terminal.
D-Relay pin 30 is connected to Battery (+) terminal with inline 20A fuse (fuse is good.)
E-The RH (kill) switch functions as it should, voltage on/voltage off (The relay 'clicks' when manipulating the switch.)
-------------------------
It appears that one of the PO's has replaced the individual Regulator and Rectifier with a singular R/R unit, and wired all three generator legs to it (as suggested in the tutorial). Here's what it looked like on the bike when I got there.

Have checked, am I am getting spark from both coils. So hopefully that's a good sign...

That's what I've got so far.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

In your list I didn't see where you connected terminal #87 of the relay to the 12v input of the coils (usually orange/white wires), but you mention 11v at the coils. So I assume that #87 is correct.

The picture of your stator/regulator connections look good. Those wires that have been cut (white/red, white/green) look like that useless loop of wire that runs up to the (usually non-existant) headlight switch.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[posplayr]

If you have spark, then most all is good. Did you set your timing?

 

[wkmpt]

If you have spark, then most all is good. Did you set your timing?

I did when I initially installed the Dyna, but I'll check it again tomorrow before I try to fire it up.

Relay Pin 87 goes to the O/W that goes to the coils. I've simply taped off the lead on the socket that corresponds to 87A.

Hopefully I'll have some good news tomorrow.

 

[wkmpt]

Checked the timing according to the Dyna instructions. "Static timed" using test light connected to coil terminal and ground, timing rotor at full advance and set Dyna to the "F" marks correspondent to the modules on the unit.

Big time cranks but no start. It's not even close to starting. Am getting a somewhat frequent but randomly-timed "chuff" (backfire?) sound coming from the intake on cylinder #3. Am not getting the same sound from any other cylinders.

In addition to the #3 cylinder noise, it intermittently sounds like there is gas in the cylinders being ignited by the spark but at the wrong time in the cycle, like when one of the valves is still open.

I set the timing the exact same way I did when I installed the Dyna, and previously the bike ran. So, other than the Dyna committing an epic fail, are there other factors that can royally screw up the ignition timing?

I recently shimmed the valves, and #3 intake was one of the valves that ended up with a little extra slack (I think it was close to 0.09 or 0.1 instead of in between 0.03-0.08), could that be contributing to the problem?

Ideas on where I should start looking?

 

[posplayr]

Checked the timing according to the Dyna instructions. "Static timed" using test light connected to coil terminal and ground, timing rotor at full advance and set Dyna to the "F" marks correspondent to the modules on the unit.

So you are using a 12V light hooked to the #1 coil right?

I was not sure if that worked, (i.e. you could get a spark out).

I don't know why you went to full advance????

U might have misinterpreted or the directions are crap ; I dint know.

These are the steps as I remember for static timing my old 64 Chevelle SS

I'm guessing U also don't have a high tension timing light (one that runs off of spark)

1.) Rotate the engine so the crank timing mark is at the required static timing mark (i.e. the F mark) the one on the advance. Do not rotate mechanical advance when you do this!!!!! You are trying to get the engine to fire on the F which is the 12 deg static mark. The advance take the advance all the way to 32 degrees which is 20 degrees further.

2.) Now rotate the dyna in the screw slots till you see the #1 cylinder fire of the oil light goes out. Rotate it several time till you really find the mark and then tighten it down.

3.) The motor should fire right up.

4.) Confirm the timing with a high tension timing light (go buy one there are not that expensive). There are some really cheap lights that only work in the dark but better than the static timing light. Confirm the advance increase beyond F when you rev it.

U seem to have wired everything correctly and are trying to time without the right tools. It is possible but you need to really understand what you are doing.

 

[wkmpt]

So you are using a 12V light hooked to the #1 coil right?

I was not sure if that worked, (i.e. you could get a spark out).

I don't know why you went to full advance????

U might have misinterpreted or the directions are crap ; I dint know.

These are the steps as I remember for static timing my old 64 Chevelle SS

I'm guessing U also don't have a high tension timing light (one that runs off of spark)

1.) Rotate the engine so the crank timing mark is at the required static timing mark (i.e. the F mark) the one on the advance. Do not rotate mechanical advance when you do this!!!!! You are trying to get the engine to fire on the F which is the 12 deg static mark. The advance take the advance all the way to 32 degrees which is 20 degrees further.

2.) Now rotate the dyna in the screw slots till you see the #1 cylinder fire of the oil light goes out. Rotate it several time till you really find the mark and then tighten it down.

3.) The motor should fire right up.

4.) Confirm the timing with a high tension timing light (go buy one there are not that expensive). There are some really cheap lights that only work in the dark but better than the static timing light. Confirm the advance increase beyond F when you rev it.

U seem to have wired everything correctly and are trying to time without the right tools. It is possible but you need to really understand what you are doing.

I thought that static timing meant that I was setting the timing without the motor running. If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

As to the test-light setup, I had the light clipped so that it was sharing the coil terminal with the wire from the Dyna. I was not checking for spark at the same time, I did that with a spark tester after I "timed" the ignition.

I just double-checked the Dyna instructions, it actually says "While holding the rotor in the fully advanced position (clockwise), slowly rotate the engine until the test light turns on. The right hand advance mark for cylinders 1-4 should align with the fixed mark on the engine case." Seems the Dyna instructions are grade-A birdcage liner.

From what you've said, I'm thinking it must be a fluke that it worked the first time...

I'm going to try it the way you suggested and see what happens.

 

[posplayr]

I thought that static timing meant that I was setting the timing without the motor running. If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

I mean rotate the Dyna timing plate with your hand not to crank the engine. Static means the engine is not rotating and you rotate the ignition to get the fireing to occur when the motor is already at the required timing mark.

As an example with a car distributor , I would lossen the distributor bolt that keeps it from rotating and rotate the distributor (back and forth passed the point of firing #1) so I knew exactly where it fired. I could actually hear the click of the point of the high tension wires. A spark plug in the wire grounded to the engine also works just takes more hands.

Once it is set tighten down the distributor in your case the Dyna.

 

[wkmpt]

Okay, adjusted the Dyna in the manner pos suggested, still cranks but no start.

Damn.

Does anyone know how to test if the Dyna is buggered? When I was rotating the unit forward, I could find the spot where the test light just came on. Then I would rotate the Dyna backwards again, to attempt to find the "sweet spot", if you will, but the light would stay on until I got the Dyna moved backwards way past the point where the light came on in the first place. I did this several times with the same result.

Seems to me that the light should turn off immediately when it's out of the "firing" spot. Or perhaps it's just a side effect of the magnetic field in the Dyna?

 

[posplayr]

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure you can find the sweet spot. Get or borrow a timing light and just get on with it.

There is something called Dwell. It is the period during which the primary is ON to allow the coils to charge. So the light will go on and off according to dwell. This is not the same as the spark plug firing. The secondary will fire (i.e. the spark plug sparks)when there is a transition from light ON to light OFF. It is NOT LIGHT OFF TO LIGHT ON.

In addition because you are using an electronic trigger related to a magnetic pulse when the rotor passes the mag pickup, there is probably a certain MINIMUM rotation speed required to get the spark to even fire.

IN CONTRAST: If you put a timing light onto the #1 plug and cranked the engine you would get a direct measure of the spark timing with respect to the crank position. If you were anywhere close the bike would fire. The fact that it is not running is clear evidence that you are not understanding the above and are there for way off.

Sorry to sound grouchy, but you have created a contrived problem due to a misunderstanding of the physical operation of the ignition system. Your solution lies in either understanding the above of use the timing light which i suggest as preferred.

When you use your timing light you will be cranking the motor over with the starter and I suggest you do not try and hold the mechanical advance at its' maximum else wise you might get a hurt finger.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3343

It is probably possible to time an engine using a Popsicle stick and a piece of duct tape. I would suggest you are not equipped to do the same so just get timing light.

 

[wkmpt]

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure you can find the sweet spot. Get or borrow a timing light and just get on with it.

There is something called Dwell. It is the period during which the primary is ON to allow the coils to charge. So the light will go on and off according to dwell. This is not the same as the spark plug firing. The secondary will fire (i.e. the spark plug sparks)when there is a transition from light ON to light OFF. It is NOT LIGHT OFF TO LIGHT ON.

In addition because you are using an electronic trigger related to a magnetic pulse when the rotor passes the mag pickup, there is probably a certain MINIMUM rotation speed required to get the spark to even fire.

IN CONTRAST: If you put a timing light onto the #1 plug and cranked the engine you would get a direct measure of the spark timing with respect to the crank position. If you were anywhere close the bike would fire. The fact that it is not running is clear evidence that you are not understanding the above and are there for way off.

Sorry to sound grouchy, but you have created a contrived problem due to a misunderstanding of the physical operation of the ignition system. Your solution lies in either understanding the above of use the timing light which i suggest as preferred.

When you use your timing light you will be cranking the motor over with the starter and I suggest you do not try and hold the mechanical advance at its' maximum else wise you might get a hurt finger.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3343

It is probably possible to time an engine using a Popsicle stick and a piece of duct tape. I would suggest you are not equipped to do the same so just get timing light.

Jeez. I didn't know I was going to cause you so much stress. I'm here on the forums exactly because I don't have a comprehensive understanding of these electrical systems. If I did, I wouldn't be asking questions and raising your blood pressure. Not all of us are electrical engineers, by trade or by heart.

I'm still working on getting a Timing light. I'm broke as chit and I just had my job bounce my last paycheck. So for me it isn't as easy as "just go pick one up". I'm working on it. The only person I know that has one is my Dad, who's about 900 miles from me and is touchy about lending his tools. Excuse me for being so desperate to ride that I wanted to try my best to get it running with what I've got. I'll stop asking any questions until I find a frikkin' light.

 

[posplayr]

Jeez. I didn't know I was going to cause you so much stress. I'm here on the forums exactly because I don't have a comprehensive understanding of these electrical systems. If I did, I wouldn't be asking questions and raising your blood pressure. Not all of us are electrical engineers, by trade or by heart.

I'm still working on getting a Timing light. I'm broke as chit and I just had my job bounce my last paycheck. So for me it isn't as easy as "just go pick one up". I'm working on it. The only person I know that has one is my Dad, who's about 900 miles from me and is touchy about lending his tools. Excuse me for being so desperate to ride that I wanted to try my best to get it running with what I've got. I'll stop asking any questions until I find a frikkin' light.

Nobody said you need to be an electrical engineer. But if you plan to use a piece of equipment you ought to know how it works and what it is for.
You are the one that picked a 12V light to do the timing. You are apparently confused with the proper technique to use it.

You already ignored my suggestion on how to time the bike using a Popsicle stick. You stick the spark plug into the spark plug wire and ground the tip of the plug and watch for a spark. When it sparks it sparks. U use the Popsicle stick to scratch your back or anything else you want.


It seems like this thread is now about how to static time with no equipment. The answer is above.

 

[posplayr]

In consideration of all the help I have tried to provide which includes an explaination of at least 3 different ways to time you bike one of which included a short tutorial on engine ignition systems, your hostility in response to my frustartion is unappealing and inapproriate. Good day

 

[Guest]

Turn the crank rotor around.

 

[Calvin Blackmore]

Is there anyone in the Chicago area that has a solid grasp on the electrical systems of GS's, that would be willing to come and help me trouble shoot my bike? I don't have much to offer, maybe some soda/adult bevvies, some gas money, and eternal gratitude, but I'm hoping that might be enough...

I attempted the coil relay mod today. I followed posplayr's guide for bikes with Dyna-s, have triple-checked my work and it's all connected as shown in the tutorial, but I'm no longer getting spark. As of this moment I look at the bike and all I see is angry spaghetti that makes me want to quit.

I'm just fed up and frustrated, it should work and it doesn't. I understand the stock elec. diagram for my bike, I understand where and how the modifications I've performed fit into the scheme. I don't understand why it's not working on the bike. I'm in over my head, and I need help.

So if there's any Samaritans out there that would be willing to come here and help me out, I'm in Batavia, I'm pretty sure I have all the tools present to do the job, and a very open schedule.

Im may be drunk but I think that would make for a great pick up line

 

[wkmpt]

Im may be drunk but I think that would make for a great pick up line

"Hey, baby, wanna check out my Coil relay mod?"

Nah, I'm not sure that would work...then again, maybe for the right girl (and BOY she'd be a keeper!)...

 

[wkmpt]

Follow-up.

Follow-up.

Okay, I have my grubby paws on a strobe timing light.

I clipped the inductive clamp onto plug wire #1. Hooked the light up to the battery terminals as directed by the instructions.

When I crank the engine over with the starter button, I get no spark as long as the bike is cranking over, but as soon an I release the starter button, the light fires. Repeating the same action multiple times, it sometimes does not fire at all.

Following that, tested all cylinders, here's the results:
#1-strobe fires only when I release the starter button, or not at all.
#2-strobe fires only when I release the starter button, or not at all.
#3-strobe fires normally, in time with the ignition.
#4-strobe fires normally, in time with the ignition.

Does that seem weird? Possible causes?

Oh, if it matters, on both coils the primary resistance was 3.2 ohms.
Secondary on coil 2-3 was 32.3 ohms on the 200k setting on my VOM.
Secondary on coil 1-4 was 25.2 ohms on the 200k setting on my VOM.
[Related to that, do I read those resistance values as 32,300 and 25,200 ohms, respectively? Is that correct?]