Interesting electrical hassles

[jonan]

It's getting cold and the day is five minutes long, and still my bigger bike will just act silly.

Annoying issue #1

R/R heatsink seems to be live, and blows the main fuse if the battery box - to which the R/R is grounded - touches the frame. This could be a feature for all I know, but I doubt it.

Annoying issue #2

When ignition is ON, but the kill switch is OFF, both coils are drawing in excess of three amps each, but NOT through the ignition circuit fuse. I ran out of daylight to find out more.

Annoying issue #3

When the engine idles (quite nicely, I might add), the ignition circuit is drawing about 10 amps, and it goes up in linear fashion when revving the engine. Had to stop at 15 amps to save the multimeter. Measured at the fuse box.

Annoying issue #4

There is no 19 mm nut at the end of my crank, just the wee ten odd mm one, followed by a black plastic bush of sorts.

Annoying issue #5

My bike is using over 120 watts to give four lousy sparks at idle, why hasn't the whole thing gone up in smoke?


The bike has Dyno S replacing the contact breakers, and I have a lurking suspicion, looking at the wiring diagrams (there is so many, and none are exactly my bike), that the switched 12 volts to the Dyna might be taken from the wrong circuit. Must confirm.

Any ideas for tomorrows seven minute session between dawn and dusk?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Steve]

Annoying issue #1
R/R heatsink seems to be live, and blows the main fuse if the battery box - to which the R/R is grounded - touches the frame. This could be a feature for all I know, but I doubt it.

You are quite right, it's not a feature, at least not a documented one.

Remove the r/r from its mount, see if it is still "live". Is it live all the time, or just when the key is on, or when the engine is running? You might have a wire with cracked insulation that is touching the heat sink, making it live.

Annoying issue #2
When ignition is ON, but the kill switch is OFF, both coils are drawing in excess of three amps each, but NOT through the ignition circuit fuse. I ran out of daylight to find out more.

Can't help you much here, I have no idea what the standard draw is for coils, but suspect it may not be much different. If it is not coming from the ignition fuse, which one is it using? Not sure about your particular model, but on the ones for which I have books, the ignition is on its own circuit.

Annoying issue #3
When the engine idles (quite nicely, I might add), the ignition circuit is drawing about 10 amps, and it goes up in linear fashion when revving the engine. Had to stop at 15 amps to save the multimeter. Measured at the fuse box.

Again, which fuse? All but the main fuse are 10 amp fuses, so you should have blown one of them before your meter.

Annoying issue #4
There is no 19 mm nut at the end of my crank, just the wee ten odd mm one, followed by a black plastic bush of sorts.

Are you sure? It may not actually be a nut on the end of the crank, it might be the end of the crank milled to a hex shape, but it should be just inboard of the 10 or 12 mm nut/bolt/whatever on the right end of the crank. Right side, that's throttle hand side.

Annoying issue #5
My bike is using over 120 watts to give four lousy sparks at idle, why hasn't the whole thing gone up in smoke?

Maybe it has, and you are just seeing the results of that failure.

The bike has Dyno S replacing the contact breakers, and I have a lurking suspicion, looking at the wiring diagrams (there is so many, and none are exactly my bike), that the switched 12 volts to the Dyna might be taken from the wrong circuit. Must confirm.

Yes, you need to confirm that, but it appears to be a good suspicion.

It's getting cold and the day is five minutes long, and still my bigger bike will just act silly. ... Any ideas for tomorrows seven minute session between dawn and dusk?

Hey, at least the days are getting longer. 8-[


Did you inherit the bike this way or is this something that has developed recently, since you have owned it?


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[jonan]

No point in catching abnormal behaviour with the fuse in place, eh? But which fuse? Well actually ... I don't know anymore; empirical studies have illustrated me that what I have from top down is:

1. Main
2. Headlamp
3. The rest
4. Ignition

This is not consistent with the scematics, which makes me believe the last two should be the other way around. Damn. Double damn. I'm not too good at this stuff, and it's hard to sift through 25 years of botch-jobs. I'll get back on this.

The right, throttle, side has the 12 mm nut, followed by a black 20 x 25 mm or so plastic bush, twisting of which will engage the advance mechanism. No large hexagon at all, just smooth round Japanese plastic. I guess the nut's hidden under there somewhere, but I'd like a second opinion before tearing through to it.

Hey, at least the days are getting longer. 8-[

I'm utilizing the twilight both sides, hence the extra 2 minutes.

Did you inherit the bike this way or is this something that has developed recently, since you have owned it?

Let's just say I now know why he sold it for so (relative) cheap.

 

[Steve]

Whereabouts are you located?

There's always a chance there is another GSR member within striking distance of you to offer some hands-on help. 8-[


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[jonan]

Helsinki, Finland, anyone?

We have space for your whole family. I'll cook, supply the drink, wash your clothes, and do the dishes if you get it fixed before winter comes.

 

[Casino Joe]

Check that R/R first

Check that R/R first

95% of all the electrical problems are from bad grounds. Electricity is a funny thing. It will find its way to ground no matter what, and cause all sorts of wonky behavior along the way.

If your R/R has got an internal short causing the heat sink to be electrified (live) then it is also feeding back power through the ground wire. Unbolt your R/R like Steve said and check if the heatsink is live. If it is, replace it. You can get a R/R from a 500cc or better Honda on ebay for under $50. Ground it right to the battery ground when you install it. Once you have it installed, find every other ground point on the frame (black wire with a white trace) and clean those contacts as well. Oh, and use dielectric grease at all these connections to prevent future corrosion.

Once you have good grounds and the R/R sorted, you will be more likely be able to properly diagnose any other strange goings on in the electrical system. I'll bet some of them vanish entirely.

By the way the rest of electrical problems are 4% component failure, and 1% gremlins. (nuthin you can do about those)

 

[Steve]

Helsinki, Finland, anyone?

(Off-topic observation here)

You know, it never ceases to amaze me. How many posters do we have on this forum that are separated from the USA by thousands of miles of water that use better spelling, grammar and puctuation than some that were born and bred here? :shock:

A couple of obvious exceptions are the UK and Oz, but we have posters from Finland, Panama, The Netherlands, and all over the world that have had to learn English as a second language, and they do it well enough to type well enough that most of us can understand!

I know a smattering of Spanish and a few words in German, but I would never even think of trying to read a forum in either of those languages, let alone sign on and try to ask technical questions.

Thank you, all, for showing us what can be done, and thank you for doing it yourself. \\/


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[jonan]

*blush* Well, gee, thanks. I think I write in convoluted, somewhat over-hyphenated, and uncomprehensive sentences, but it's nice to know I'm coherent after all.

Anyway, the little gremlin visiting my bike's been extra busy. I don't quite understand, in lieu of todays findings, how it's possible that the bike has run at all.

I'm not finished with diagnosing the poor wreck, but here's what we've found out so far:

Ignition circuit is running separate from the rest, physically removed by a relay controlled by the kill switch. This is maybe good, but there is no fuse in the whole circuit. Incidentally, the kill switch's been wired to the wrong fuse.

The R/R is a Kawasaki unit hacksawed to fit, incorporating an interesting wiring scheme. The switched wire controlling the third phase is bolted to the R/R frame, making the R/R body live, along with the battery box to which it is bolted, whenever the lights are switched on! The only reason this has allowed to not kill things, is that the R/R case is not internally grounded.

But it gets better: the 12 volts to the R/R is picked up from somewhere the brake light circuit, going through the bottom fuse, and somehow bypassing the mains altogether. The third phase was routed directly to the R/R, and the ground was run to somewhere in the main loom, instead of the battery negative 10 centimeters to its left. The voltage sensor was spliced from what has originally been the battery side of the rear brake light switch, but has somehow been muddled in the rewiring process to the ground side, hence sensor is always grounded, 0 volts, zip, no matter how hard the regulator would try not to regulate. Again, the fuse is wrong, not to mention that the orange direct-to-battery-positive-via-ignition-and-fuse wire is actually just 3 ohms away from the ground, never recieving the 12 bloody volts it should. The lights work as they should, though. Odd.

Although I still haven't found what is drawing the 10+ amps of current through the brake/turn-light-circuit-come-effectively-the-mains, when the bike is running, I'd say that explains the weak spark. When I first got the bike, all the fuses were something like 20 to 30 amps, just to avoid the blows caused from the vibration allowing the battery bucket to touch the frame, and what is obviously a current sink somewhere away from the battery, drawing everything the bike can offer.

The R/R checks out fine, the coils are in spec, and the Dyna is fine. What luck.

Wonder what is in store for tomorrow.

 

[jonan]

So can I connect all the phases direct to my Kawasaki R/R, droping the switch thing?

 

[Casino Joe]

Wow.
Jonan, it would seem the P/O was quite... err... creative with his efforts to rewire the bike.

If the Kawasaki R/R is anything like a Honda or later model suzuki unit, you should be able to hookup the 3 stator wires to the 3 (presumably yellow) input wires. Output can be run to the battery positive or fuse block where the battery cable terminates. Ground should go directly to the battery negative terminal. Most GSR members have run the sense wire to the brake switch hot wire.

I have no earthly idea why the P/O used the kill switch and relay in that fashion, but you can bet he didn't stop there. If he totally bypassed the original ignition fuse with all this "custom" wiring, you can be fairly certain there is some kind of short or other problem in that circuit. Again I can't stress enough how important it is to make sure all your ground points are sound before trying to diagnose these problems.

Go slow and tackle one circuit at a time. Sounds like you have a very long winter to get this machine right. Even though the wiring diagrams you have are not not exactly for "your" bike, they should be close enough to get you started. Maybe another member has a copy of the diagram you need.

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

It's one of those things that can be very frustrating, but eventually you will get it fixed.

 

[ArttuH]

Helsinki, Finland, anyone?

We have space for your whole family. I'll cook, supply the drink, wash your clothes, and do the dishes if you get it fixed before winter comes.

Sorry, missed by 150km

I have some wiring diagrams for 1100 model. I guess that they are pretty close match to your bike. Just PM me if you want a copy. Or if you just would like to discuss about your problems in Finnish.

 

[TheRedlineMan]

(Off-topic observation here)

You know, it never ceases to amaze me. How many posters do we have on this forum that are separated from the USA by thousands of miles of water that use better spelling, grammar and puctuation than some that were born and bred here? :shock:

A couple of obvious exceptions are the UK and Oz, but we have posters from Finland, Panama, The Netherlands, and all over the world that have had to learn English as a second language, and they do it well enough to type well enough that most of us can understand!

I know a smattering of Spanish and a few words in German, but I would never even think of trying to read a forum in either of those languages, let alone sign on and try to ask technical questions.

Thank you, all, for showing us what can be done, and thank you for doing it yourself. \\/


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Oooooh cool, yet another candidate for 'School Marm of the Year'

 

[jonan]

'Schoolmarm of the Year'

Fixed.

Plonked all phases together, I've got lights on all the time anyway. Next question is should I see the battery charge current through the main fuse?

I'm still showing 10 amps at main fuse just idling without the lights on, I hope it's the battery charging. At least the figures aren't racing sky high with blibbing the engine now. Lots of things rewired.