Kickstand kill switch

[Dan Ruddock]

Yes mine is N.O. when down and N.C. when up. It works what more can I say. I plan to put a relay coil mod in the future. I realy did not copy how it was done on later bikes but just designed in my head what would work. Dan

 

[robertbarr]

The key to these systems is that when in neutral you can start the motorcycle without the sidestand down. This is nicew if you kill the bike at a stop light. Of course, you must find neutral first. Without any of these systems you just need to pull in the clutch.

Hmm, now I'm confused.

The 'standard' setup anymore is really simple.

1) The starter will not operate without the clutch pulled in under any circumstances.

2) There is no ignition and no starter with the sidestand down and the trans in any gear except neutral.

This is how my '01 Bandit operates, and I'm pretty sure most 'modern' bikes. It just makes sense to me. Why would this be a problem at a stoplight? You'd have the sidestand up, right? There would be no need to find neutral.

Unless I'm missing something...

 

[posplayr]

This is kind of an interesting problem. I've been studying it and have come to a few conclusions. The solution is mostly based on what you are trying to achieve and what you already have.

In the attached pdf you will see 3 charts with different implementations of the same functionality that is being described above. To be explicit I put it into a truth table.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/Kickstand_Kill_Switch_GS1100E.pdf

The first charts shows the simplest implementation to achieve functionality without any lights or coil relay. Notice that the polarity of the stand switch is UP==ON as is consistent with other safety interlock implementations.

The second Chart is a little more complicated as it adds a Neutral light and shows how to connect to a coil relay which is necessary because of the diodes used to LOGICALLY OR the voltages. The Second Chart is equivalent to Dan's,

The last chart shows an implementation for an GS1100E which has low side controls for both Neutral and Kickstand lights. I implemented the LOGICAL OR logic using an additional cascaded Relay. The single diode is required to keep the low side idiot lights functional. The Kickstand Switch is now DOWN==ON

If you are starting from scratch, Dan's solution is pretty good. If you have low side controls then the last one seems to be a minimal solution. From a reliability standpoint as long as the contacts do not burn out in the kickstand relay, then coil relay will remain grounded and should function. You are not relying on the coil to remain in tact. The neutral safety switch adds an additional means of energizing the Coil relay when the kickstand relay is energized.


http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/Kickstand_Kill_Switch_GS1100E.pdf

Pos

 

[Steve]

The 'standard' setup anymore is really simple.

1) The starter will not operate without the clutch pulled in under any circumstances.

2) There is no ignition and no starter with the sidestand down and the trans in any gear except neutral...

If I were at home, I would see if I could scan the pages (yes, it's more than one) of the wiring diagram that relate to the starter interlock system on my Wing. I think it might be like your Bandit, except you can start the engine without using the clutch if the transmission is in neutral. If it is in any gear, you must pull the clutch to engage the starter. If the sidestand is put down with the bike in gear (or, if the bike is put into gear with the stand down), the engine dies. Also, you can not start the engine if Reverse in engaged. The engine has to be running to use Reverse, which involves raising a lever to move some gears inside the engine, then pressing the start button to have the starter motor turn the driveshaft in the reverse direction.

.

 

[reddirtrider]

Hmm, now I'm confused.

The 'standard' setup anymore is really simple.

1) The starter will not operate without the clutch pulled in under any circumstances.

2) There is no ignition and no starter with the sidestand down and the trans in any gear except neutral.

This is how my '01 Bandit operates, and I'm pretty sure most 'modern' bikes. It just makes sense to me. Why would this be a problem at a stoplight? You'd have the sidestand up, right? There would be no need to find neutral.

Unless I'm missing something...

Actually, if you are in neutral you shouldn't need to pull in the clutch. I should amend that. Not on any of my bikes anyway and the ZRX1200 is modern enough. Not sure about the Bandit.

 

[Agemax]

i have a remote start on my bike. 2 seperate receivers, one for main power and one for the starter motor.the starter motor receiver is earthed through the neutral light switch so it wont operate unless the bike is in neutral.
it will still turn over on the starter button if i press it and there is a "hidden" override switch if one of the receivers should fail. it has been very reliable.
therefore i have no switch on the clutch lever as it is not required, but i dont have a switch on the kick stand.
i am just very concious that i flick it up before i ride away.
personally i dont see the need for any extra relays. if you fit a normally closed switch when the stand is up and splice it in between the starter button and the solenoid it will work fine.
if the stand is down it breaks the circuit to the starter solenoid

 

[posplayr]

have a remote start on my bike. 2 seperate receivers, one for main power and one for the starter motor.the starter motor receiver is earthed through the neutral light switch so it wont operate unless the bike is in neutral.
it will still turn over on the starter button if i press it and there is a "hidden" override switch if one of the receivers should fail. it has been very reliable.

I assume you use this only after the engine is warmed and there is no choke required.

personally i dont see the need for any extra relays. if you fit a normally closed switch when the stand is up and splice it in between the starter button and the solenoid it will work fine.
if the stand is down it breaks the circuit to the starter solenoid

You won't be able to start the engine on the side stand this way without mounting and righting the bike with the kick stand obviously up. Running in nuetral with kickstand down is an allowed condition (see the truth table I posted).

 

[Sandy]

A simple quick fix might be something like Honda used on my '83 750 Interceptor. They had a rubber extension piece that stuck down from the end of the sidestand and it contacted the ground first and flipped the stand up should you have accidently left it down. It seemed to work. You could probably make something quite easily from a piece of mudflap and some hose clamps.

 

[posplayr]

Hi Sandy,
I'm not sure this works in all cases depending upon the side stand angle and how you turn into the stand. Was this something honda did specifically for that purpose? Did you ever test it?

I have ridden away with my side stand down at least a couple of times recently and when I started to lean moderately to the left I was just stood up. Suprisingly the stand just stayed down and remained extended without kicking back. I've never experienced being pole valuted, but not hard to imagine.

Hope to see you at the Shasta Rally. Will be working on the ED Gixxer suspension; working exhaust right now (among other things).
Jim

 

[Agemax]

I assume you use this only after the engine is warmed and there is no choke required.



You won't be able to start the engine on the side stand this way without mounting and righting the bike with the kick stand obviously up. Running in nuetral with kickstand down is an allowed condition (see the truth table I posted).

usually, but if i know i am going to leave the bike for a while then i will flip the choke up so its ready for the next time i want to start it up.
fair enough about the kickstand being down but its all down to his preference on how safe he wants to be.
he has plenty of options now to make his own mind up of what sort of criteria he is after

 

[Sandy]

Hi Sandy,
I'm not sure this works in all cases depending upon the side stand angle and how you turn into the stand. Was this something honda did specifically for that purpose? Did you ever test it?

I have ridden away with my side stand down at least a couple of times recently and when I started to lean moderately to the left I was just stood up. Suprisingly the stand just stayed down and remained extended without kicking back. I've never experienced being pole valuted, but not hard to imagine.

Hope to see you at the Shasta Rally. Will be working on the ED Gixxer suspension; working exhaust right now (among other things).
Jim

Yeah, it worked, sort of!! It extended past the end of the stand about an inch, it flexed when on the stand and at lower speeds the rubber would contact the ground first and flip the stand up. I CAREFULLY tried it at higher speeds and it would slam the stand up but because of the force that it went up at it would just pop down again. A guy would have to probably fiddle with the configuration to find something that worked OK. As for Shasta, I'll see you there. Just have to mount some new rubber, otherwise it's good to go. Hopefully there'll be some good roads like the Little Dragon we rode last year and no cops.

 

[posplayr]

Truth Table.

OK guys, I thing the intended behavior's according to my read of the later model Gixxer manual is shown below. I hope this is unambiguous.

I have conclude that normally the clutch inhibit of the starter solenoid is completely separate from the Neutral switch. Of course this could be added as well.

If you are not an EE type, the truth table allows me do reduce the relationships to Boolean Logic so I could figure out different implementations. As it turns out the equation for the table can be written several ways depending upon the polarity of the switches. Given the combination of switch polarity and DeMorgan's theorem, there are several options to implementation LOGICALLY, and so compound that with electrical implementations and no two will be the same.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_4/chpt_7/8.html

As an example, if:

SideStand UP = 1
Transmission IN NEUTRAL = 1

Then

IGNITION = TRANSMISSION + SIDESTAND

Else if


SideStand DOWN = 1
Transmission IN NEUTRAL = 1

Then

IGNITION = TRANSMISSION + !SIDESTAND

So the logic is basically a LOGICAL OR, but depending upon the NO/NC type of switch fro the kicks stand you may or may not need inversion. In addition the idiot lights that are implemented generally need low side control and possibly isolation from the other leg of the logic.

So bear all this in mind when you are trying to figure out why someone else is making it so complicated and this thread length goes over 100 posts. :-&

Pos

 

[Agemax]

Truth Table.

OK guys, I thing the intended behavior's according to my read of the later model Gixxer manual is shown below. I hope this is unambiguous.

I have conclude that normally the clutch inhibit of the starter solenoid is completely separate from the Neutral switch. Of course this could be added as well.

If you are not an EE type, the truth table allows me do reduce the relationships to Boolean Logic so I could figure out different implementations. As it turns out the equation for the table can be written several ways depending upon the polarity of the switches. Given the combination of switch polarity and DeMorgan's theorem, there are several options to implementation LOGICALLY, and so compound that with electrical implementations and no two will be the same.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_4/chpt_7/8.html

As an example, if:

SideStand UP = 1
Transmission IN NEUTRAL = 1

Then

IGNITION = TRANSMISSION + SIDESTAND

Else if


SideStand DOWN = 1
Transmission IN NEUTRAL = 1

Then

IGNITION = TRANSMISSION + !SIDESTAND

So the logic is basically a LOGICAL OR, but depending upon the NO/NC type of switch fro the kicks stand you may or may not need inversion. In addition the idiot lights that are implemented generally need low side control and possibly isolation from the other leg of the logic.

So bear all this in mind when you are trying to figure out why someone else is making it so complicated and this thread length goes over 100 posts. :-&

Pos

LOL, ffs just wire up a switch to your kickstand and see if it works or not. then go from there! :clap:

 

[posplayr]

LOL, ffs just wire up a switch to your kickstand and see if it works or not. then go from there! :clap:

Sorry Age,

I've been trained

"if you can't make it work on paper FIRST, then there is little hope making it work in real life"

Jim

 

[tkent02]

Repeat after me, 100 times before each day's ride:

I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.
I will put my sidestand up before I ride.

 

[Killer2600]

Actually, if you are in neutral you shouldn't need to pull in the clutch. I should amend that. Not on any of my bikes anyway and the ZRX1200 is modern enough. Not sure about the Bandit.

Suzuki's are different, pulling the clutch is always required when starting...I do like Kawasaki's setup though it's pretty trick---ignition and starter safetys with headlight bypass too

 

[posplayr]

OK been working on the whole enchalada:



Starter will not crank unless:

• either the clutch is in
• or in neutral.

The engine will not run unless :

• either Kick stand is up
• or Kick stand down in Neutral

Solution assumes:

• (Normally Open) Kickstand switch
• Kickstand and Neutral Lights
• Clutch switch (Normally Open)
• Neutral Switch (Normally Open)
• Coil relay Mod

Requires adding:

• One automotive style relay (if you have the Normally Closed Kick stand switch then the relay can be omitted but add an additional diode if there is a kickstand light)
• Two Diodes
• Some wires

More later: gotta get back to work; I will do a retrofit to a GS1100ED where I have all this stuff.

Pos

 

[Agemax]

OK been working on the whole enchalada:



Starter will not crank unless:

• either the clutch is in
• or in neutral.

The engine will not run unless either:

• Kick stand is up
• Kick stand down in Neutral

Solution assumes:

• (Normally Open) Kickstand switch
• Kickstand and Neutral Lights
• Clutch switch (Normally Open)
• Neutral Switch (Normally Open)
• Coil relay Mod

Requires adding:

• One automotive style relay
• Two Diodes
• Some wires

More later: gotta get back to work; I will do a retrofit to a GS1100ED where I have all this stuff.

Pos

Pos, you do not need to bother about relays and diodes, its simply a matter of splicing the switch into the relevent circuit that he requires to work.
a basic switch will not add any more significant load on the circuit and certainly does not require the use of a relay or a diode.
i have spoken to an electrician at work and shown him this thread and he reckons you are getting way over the top for the problem in hand

 

[posplayr]

i have spoken to an electrician at work and shown him this thread and he reckons you are getting way over the top for the problem in hand

I'm probably over the top, but I'm pretty sure that given the full requirements the implementation in minimal.

I stated early on that the individual solution that anyone would make, is doing to be very dependent on what functionality is required. The specifics of switches polarity, and number of idiot lights supported each have the possibility of adding more components and circuitry.

At this point I have added the same components as the GSXR OEM solution coupled with a Coil Mod relay to have full capability involving clutch, side stand and neutral including both idiot lights. This is a more sophisticated safety interlock than the 98 GSXR.

Lets see if your friend can figure that out.

Note the first schematic I showed was the minimalist implementation assuming no lights. Only switches and no diodes.

Pos

 

[tkent02]

Suzuki's are different, pulling the clutch is always required when starting...

Only new Suzukis. Old Suzukis (before 1980) you were expected to know how to ride.