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Knocking when cold?

Joe Nardy

Joe Nardy

Forum Sage
Past Site Supporter
TGSR Superstar
I just started my '83 GS1100ED that has been sitting for about three weeks. Its last ride was about 1000 miles at the Brown County Rally and it ran great. It has always run great. This evening when I started it there was a noticeable knock seemingly from the left side of the engine from the cylinder or head. After a couple minutes it lessened but was noticeable at 2100-2200 rpm. After a couple more minutes it was gone. The engine has just under 49,000 miles on it and has been ridden hard at times but I wouldn't say it has been abused. The noise doesn't sound like loose valves, cam chain, or clutch basket rattle. Could it be that I'm beginning to get a piston slap when the engine is cold but when it warms up the pistons expand and don't have as much play? I've never heard of this symptom before and I'm grateful for any advice anyone might have.

Thanks,
Joe
 
Joe Nardy said:
I just started my '83 GS1100ED that has been sitting for about three weeks. Its last ride was about 1000 miles at the Brown County Rally and it ran great. It has always run great. This evening when I started it there was a noticeable knock seemingly from the left side of the engine from the cylinder or head. After a couple minutes it lessened but was noticeable at 2100-2200 rpm. After a couple more minutes it was gone. The engine has just under 49,000 miles on it and has been ridden hard at times but I wouldn't say it has been abused. The noise doesn't sound like loose valves, cam chain, or clutch basket rattle. Could it be that I'm beginning to get a piston slap when the engine is cold but when it warms up the pistons expand and don't have as much play? I've never heard of this symptom before and I'm grateful for any advice anyone might have.

Thanks,
Joe
Click to expand...
You SURE its coming from the cylinder or head?? Perhaps a lil bit of rotor/starter gear knock maybe?? My ES has a little bit of a "chuf chuf chuf" that im pretty sure is associated with the starter clutch and or rotor...just havent pulled it to see whats going on yet...
 
TheCafeKid said:
You SURE its coming from the cylinder or head?? Perhaps a lil bit of rotor/starter gear knock maybe?? My ES has a little bit of a "chuf chuf chuf" that im pretty sure is associated with the starter clutch and or rotor...just havent pulled it to see whats going on yet...
Click to expand...

Josh,

It sure seems to be coming from the left side of the head/cylinder. It seems louder form the front but I can't get my ear as close to the block from the rear. I rebuilt the starter clutch last year so I don't think that's the problem. I also rebuilt the cam chain tensioner last year so it should be good. I'm going to pull the valve cover, stator cover, and check the cam chain tensioner tomorrow.

Thanks,
Joe
 
Joe Nardy said:
Josh,

It sure seems to be coming from the left side of the head/cylinder. It seems louder form the front but I can't get my ear as close to the block from the rear. I rebuilt the starter clutch last year so I don't think that's the problem. I also rebuilt the cam chain tensioner last year so it should be good. I'm going to pull the valve cover, stator cover, and check the cam chain tensioner tomorrow.

Thanks,
Joe
Click to expand...

Just a note on a rebuild...Ive seen, in GS and other makes, people "rebuild" the starter clutch many times. Some guys even go to the extent of welding the back plate to keep the bits from pushing out on it again..but A LOT of them still fail...Ive had a couple go out, both 750 and 1100..and Ive always just bought new ones just to be sure...COULD be a possibility there...
I know you're a GS vet, but sometimes *I* have a tendancy to overlook the obvious stuff, and im in one of these motors or a bike at least 3-4 times a week, mine or otherwise. So dont think im trying to insult your inteligence or anything please. What about an exhaust leak or bad gasket there? I know it makes more of a "hiss" really, but i guess if it were just starting to go it could sound a lil different. Piston slap is a possibility, but unless you're seeing blue death coming from the tail pipe to accompany the sound, I just dont think thats the case....Id hate to even consider it but could it be crank racket? I know yours has the welded crank like mine, but they're not welded as well as they should be...49K you say? Barely broke in...Im creeping up on that myself..bout to turn 45k in the next couple of days...
 
Last edited:
TheCafeKid said:
Just a note on a rebuild...Ive seen, in GS and other makes, people "rebuild" the starter clutch many times. Some guys even go to the extent of welding the back plate to keep the bits from pushing out on it again..but A LOT of them still fail...Ive had a couple go out, both 750 and 1100..and Ive always just bought new ones just to be sure...COULD be a possibility there...
I know you're a GS vet, but sometimes *I* have a tendancy to overlook the obvious stuff, and im in one of these motors or a bike at least 3-4 times a week, mine or otherwise. So dont think im trying to insult your inteligence or anything please. What about an exhaust leak or bad gasket there? I know it makes more of a "hiss" really, but i guess if it were just starting to go it could sound a lil different. Piston slap is a possibility, but unless you're seeing blue death coming from the tail pipe to accompany the sound, I just dont think thats the case....Id hate to even consider it but could it be crank racket? I know yours has the welded crank like mine, but they're not welded as well as they should be...49K you say? Barely broke in...Im creeping up on that myself..bout to turn 45k in the next couple of days...
Click to expand...

Josh,

No insult taken. I appreciate the ideas. I'm not ruling anything out but this doesn't sound like exhaust leak or anything that would be coming from the starter clutch. It doesn't sound good but the bike runs fine. Once it warms up the noise goes away. I think that is an important clue. I'm open to all suggestions......

Thanks,
Joe
 
How about a partially blocked oil way? That might starve part of the engine when oil is cold.
Not Pre-ignition is it? Not using a different brand of petrol or partially blocked carbs causing it to run a bit lean (& maybe causing knock).
Also in my experience any noise at the clutch travels right across to the other side too & can even be louder on the left (it was on the 750 I'm working on).
Could it be 2 plates sticking that free up when the oil thins out?

First thing I would try would prob be seafoam in the oil & Gas tank, run it then full drain & filter change etc. Try again...

Dan :)
 
salty_monk said:
How about a partially blocked oil way? That might starve part of the engine when oil is cold.
Not Pre-ignition is it? Not using a different brand of petrol or partially blocked carbs causing it to run a bit lean (& maybe causing knock).
Also in my experience any noise at the clutch travels right across to the other side too & can even be louder on the left (it was on the 750 I'm working on).
Could it be 2 plates sticking that free up when the oil thins out?

First thing I would try would prob be seafoam in the oil & Gas tank, run it then full drain & filter change etc. Try again...

Dan :)
Click to expand...

Good point Dan, I had some knocking/rattling going on that I swore up and down was coming from the stator side, but in the process of changing my clutch springs, I tightened up the hub nut while i was in there...never heard the sound again...
 
salty_monk said:
How about a partially blocked oil way? That might starve part of the engine when oil is cold.
Not Pre-ignition is it? Not using a different brand of petrol or partially blocked carbs causing it to run a bit lean (& maybe causing knock).
Also in my experience any noise at the clutch travels right across to the other side too & can even be louder on the left (it was on the 750 I'm working on).
Could it be 2 plates sticking that free up when the oil thins out?

First thing I would try would prob be seafoam in the oil & Gas tank, run it then full drain & filter change etc. Try again...

Dan :)
Click to expand...

Dan,

Thanks for the thoughts. I have considered a blocked oil passage but didn't think about running some Sea Foam in the oil. I'll put some in tomorrow. I don't think it's pre-ignition but that's a possibility. I've never had any problems running any particular brand of gas. I'll fill it up with some high-octane Shell gas tomorrow. The carbs seem to be clean. The only problems I've ever had with the carbs are clogged pilots and I know immediately when they're clogged by the way it starts and runs. That doesn't seem to be the case as it starts right up, goes into a nice high idle with the choke on, and settles down to a nice steady idle after warming up for a few minutes. I'll try to isolate the noise further but I really don't think it's anything the clutch or starter clutch would sound like.

Please keep the ideas coming!

Thanks,
Joe
 
Joe Nardy said:
Dan,

Thanks for the thoughts. I have considered a blocked oil passage but didn't think about running some Sea Foam in the oil. I'll put some in tomorrow. I don't think it's pre-ignition but that's a possibility. I've never had any problems running any particular brand of gas. I'll fill it up with some high-octane Shell gas tomorrow. The carbs seem to be clean. The only problems I've ever had with the carbs are clogged pilots and I know immediately when they're clogged by the way it starts and runs. That doesn't seem to be the case as it starts right up, goes into a nice high idle with the choke on, and settles down to a nice steady idle after warming up for a few minutes. I'll try to isolate the noise further but I really don't think it's anything the clutch or starter clutch would sound like.

Please keep the ideas coming!

Thanks,
Joe
Click to expand...

When is the last time you dynamic synced the carbs Joe? you SHOULD do it every valve adjustment..but I dont..and if you havent in a while, its possible one has fallen out just enough to start hammering on the crank when its cold and starving...
 
Hey Joe
I'd keep an eye on the oil pressure. Do you have a guage?
 
TheCafeKid said:
When is the last time you dynamic synced the carbs Joe? you SHOULD do it every valve adjustment..but I dont..and if you havent in a while, its possible one has fallen out just enough to start hammering on the crank when its cold and starving...
Click to expand...

That's another thing to check. I don't think it's likely since it runs smoothly and quietly at idle where the sync has more effect but I'll check it out.

Thanks,
Joe
 
Piston slap with make the noise you describe Joe. A little slap when cold is not overly serious although it's not a good sign either.
 
I don't have an 1100, its a 650, but I've had that noise on startup for years now. I always thought it was maybe a tightish link in the cam chain. I didn't go looking for trouble because it always quietened down after the engine was warm and the engine always ran well. I assumed the parts warmed up and the oil got spread throughout.... :-\\\
 
Joe

Joe

I would suspect the clutch first. When I bought my 1100ED with 49K it had sort of a deep knock at times, and it even seemed to be coming from the left hand side like Dan suggested. At the time I even had a gorilla hub.
Not sure now, but we did pull the clutch, swapped out some plates and used the HD clutch nut. After carb balancing I have had no more problems. It went away and I have had no bottom end problems even after doing the top end once (unsuccesfully)and 1166 kit the next. :dancing:

Jim
 
Nessism said:
Piston slap with make the noise you describe Joe. A little slap when cold is not overly serious although it's not a good sign either.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ed,

My concern right now is that I'm leaving tomorrow for the SE Rally, probably a 2200-2500 mile trip. I'm going to go through some things today and if I can't get rid of the noise I'll probably take another bike and tear into this more deeply after the rally.

Thanks,
Joe
 
posplayr said:
I would suspect the clutch first. When I bought my 1100ED with 49K it had sort of a deep knock at times, and it even seemed to be coming from the left hand side like Dan suggested. At the time I even had a gorilla hub.
Not sure now, but we did pull the clutch, swapped out some plates and used the HD clutch nut. After carb balancing I have had no more problems. It went away and I have had no bottom end problems even after doing the top end once (unsuccesfully)and 1166 kit the next. :dancing:

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,

While I'm going to investigate clutch/starter clutch, etc. I'm reasonably convinced the noise is coming from the cylinders or head. I'm going to get one of those Harbor Freight stethoscopes and see if I can isolate the source of the problem better.

Thanks,
Joe
 
A length of garden/heater hose held to the ear works to identify suspect areas also.
 
Joe Nardy said:
Jim,

While I'm going to investigate clutch/starter clutch, etc. I'm reasonably convinced the noise is coming from the cylinders or head. I'm going to get one of those Harbor Freight stethoscopes and see if I can isolate the source of the problem better.

Thanks,
Joe
Click to expand...
Believe it or not, those are AWESOME!! BTW, just for fun, listen to your header pipes while the bike is running...its the sound of raw power...lol
 
Joe, why not check the compression with the motor cold and then do it again with the motor hot just to see if there is any noticable difference?
 
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