Laying it down?

[Pete Logan]

The laying it down thing may have been more useful in the days of totally inadequate drum brakes, when the rear brake was typically stronger than the front, largely because the tire technology was so bad that any serious use of the front brake was impossible without dumping the front end, especially in the wet, where any use of the front at all would simply throw you down.

In those times, learning how to lock the rear end and then slide the bike to a stop was a useful survival tool. Laying it down, however, was likely not the desired outcome, but a failed slide stop.

 

[earlfor]

The laying it down thing may have been more useful in the days of totally inadequate drum brakes, when the rear brake was typically stronger than the front, largely because the tire technology was so bad that any serious use of the front brake was impossible without dumping the front end, especially in the wet, where any use of the front at all would simply throw you down.

In those times, learning how to lock the rear end and then slide the bike to a stop was a useful survival tool. Laying it down, however, was likely not the desired outcome, but a failed slide stop.

Well, I'm not going to be intentionally laying any bikes down because I never learned the skills required to steer or brake with the bike sliding on its side with me on my back.

Earl

 

[sonnygs1100]

Well,looks like I'm the idiot.Having cut my teeth on dirt bikes,mostly enduro's etc in the bush , and not on the moto x track , I learned to "lay it down" as a matter of survival.I have consciously layed a road bike down once.I was out for a ride and forgot to check my tyre pressures then ran wide on a corner.I could have smashed into a solid rock face , upright on two wheels, or lean a little and jam the back brake on.I went for the second option.Saved me but absoloodle destroyed my bike.What you all have said is right.It's not a thing you want to do.The bike takes off like a rocket and you don't want to get caught between it and what stops it.Also you don't want to slide under anything,like a car or a truck.....but sometimes you just gotta do....... Cheers,Simon.:-k

well i guess im in the same boat as you , I KNOW HOW TO LAY DOWN A BIKE AND WALK AWAY . i guess that makes me an idiot or a harley rider . when i took riders saftey in mid 80s they still taught you how to lay down a bike and jump curbs oh well what do i know :dancing:

 

[Pete Logan]

Well, I'm not going to be intentionally laying any bikes down because I never learned the skills required to steer or brake with the bike sliding on its side with me on my back.

Earl

I actually learned how on a bicycle. I got a granny bike, and then my younger brother got a racer, so in an attempt to keep up I stripped absolutely everything off that bike, including the brakes.

So the only way to stop it was to stand on the left pedal, and jam the right foot on the rear tire, against the frame. That got the back locked, and then it was just a question of dancing it till the thing got stopped.

Strange though it sounds, it has stood me in good stead more than once on a motorcycle when I overdid the rear brake. Though I still regard laying it down as more of a loss of control than a deliberate technique

That said, we did have a member here who slid his under a semi trailer when he couldn't get stopped in time the conventional way, so like everything else, I guess there is a time and a place it might come in handy too be able to slide the rear with confidence, and even lay it down.

 

[KiwiGS]

Having done a bit of racing on dirt oval speedway tracks, I have laid a bike down a few times.
When I started racing we were told if someone crashes in front of you to lay your bike down. To protect yourself, them and your bike!
That said the bikes we raced did not have brakes and there was a fecking great concrete wall around the track!
I have also had a bit of "practice" at falling of bike on the road, and never once have I thought "right that is it I am gonna lay her down."
I think there are just too many variables on the road to be deliberately chucking your bike down the road
Cheers

 

[Guest]

In the '70s I read a book on motorcycling that told how to do it, and advised practicing on wet grass, and loose dirt, before attempting it on pavement. Other than sliding under a semi, I can't imagine when it would be useful when riding a GS on the road.

As for explaining it, I would use the technical explanation that the friction coefficient for modern rubber tires is much higher than the coefficient for steel. After they reject engineering, I'd politely thank them, and change the topic.

 

[mottyl]

I was driving home from work on thursday going about 50km on a city street. Did a shoulder check and moved from the left to the right lane, just then a 5 ton truck decided to pull out of traffic and hang aleft in front of me. The driver spotted me and then stopped, leaving me a 3-4 foot hole to go through.

I hit the rear break too hard (panicking). The bike started to slide and I actually thought about bailing off the thing seeing as it wasn't handling like my old dirtbikes. Released both brakes, the tires caught and I made it through the hole on the right side.

This all happened really, really quickly. I am glad I decided to stay on the bike but you sure don't have alot of time to evaluate your position.

Chris

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

I got my motorcycle license a week ago, after successfully completing a 20-hour motorcycle safety course. I rode my Suzuki to work 1 day this week (I'm training for a 200km bicycle ride, so that's my main bike atm).
Anyways, a few people at work are asking if I know how to lay a bike down properly because it's very important. Some of these people actually ride. How do I (as a newbie) convince these riders that laying down your bike isn't an option, and that it's just an excuse to save face? (without totally offending them). Or is it worth it?

My response today was, "When you learn defensive driving in a car, you don't practice how to evacuate a car submerged in a lake, because they hope that the skills you have learned will avoid such a scenario."

Perhaps...

"No I don't...didn't even know there was a proper way. However, I've learned and practice how to keep from laying it down through good judgement and awareness and proper use of the controls."

The only POSSIBLE exception to the "there is no benefit to laying it down" rule is IF you are forced into a collision course with an elevated target (such as a semi's trailer) and will not be able to slow down/stop prior to reaching said barrier. The justification being that it's probably better to slide under than drive into an obstacle. Still, it would be an EXTREMELY rare set of circumstances that would find you in such a situation.

Stay up and in control as long as you can - that's the best you can do in virtually all situations. On the other hand, if a rider is so unskilled as to be out of control while their still up, they may just be better off layin' it down.


PS: One more thought. Layin' it down is THE way to go if you're trying to knee cap a group of people by sliding your bike into them. Staying up and in control will usually only get one or two at time.

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

Well, I'm not going to be intentionally laying any bikes down because I never learned the skills required to steer or brake with the bike sliding on its side with me on my back.

Earl

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Poor boy. Don't worry, I think the MSF is developing an updated ERC for poor souls such as yourself.

 

[Billy Ricks]

You don't have to practice or know how to lay a bike down. If an impact is unavoidable reflexes are going to cause you to steer away from the impact at the last second and the bike is going down.

 

[argonsagas]

You don't have to practice or know how to lay a bike down. If an impact is unavoidable reflexes are going to cause you to steer away from the impact at the last second and the bike is going down.

Agreed.



Creating the circumstances that permit practicing this, however, seems to be a negative, even destructive, type of effort.

 

[Jethro]

Anyways, a few people at work are asking if I know how to lay a bike down properly because it's very important. Some of these people actually ride.

These people are insane. You should stop communicating with them as soon as possible so that their foolishness, stupidity and lack of common sense doesn't seep into your head. Just looking out for you, as stupidity can be contagious.

Laying it down is the same exact thing as an accident. No different. Trust me on this, you do not have to practice accidents. If you happen to find yourself in one, you will instantly become an expert.

 

[dpep]

I have read all of the responses and agree with the bulk of the advice.

I will say however that if you are involved in turning such as in making a curve that is too tight or trying to avoid an object in your path, bring it on over as much as you can even if it risks going down in a lowside. You have the chance that you will make it around, but even if you don't a lowside is almost always preferable to a highside. Even that is a general rule, not an absolute one. Every accident scenario is different.

That isn't the same thing "laying down" on purpose, but it is the closest I would come to anything that met that description.

 

[tkent02]

I will say however that if you are involved in turning such as in making a curve that is too tight or trying to avoid an object in your path, bring it on over as much as you can even if it risks going down in a lowside. You have the chance that you will make it around, but even if you don't a lowside is almost always preferable to a highside.

+1 on this.
Amazingly, the bike almost always makes the curve, unless panic gets the rider.
Gentle braking can help too, unless the tires' traction is already maxed out from cornering. (It's not maxed out on a stock GS, unless the rubber is stone age or we are on wet roads. They just can't lean that far)
A lowside like this is preferable to a highside or just driving off the road right side up.
A good argument for track day practice.
We've all gone into a corner too hot.
Some of us have lived through it.

 

[GSXXZRX]

Here's a pretty good example of no front brake. But we all
know he did this to avoid hitting the dumpster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7wH7WDUvF0

 

[posplayr]

Lay down situation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDKSgoixAU8&NR=1


NOT

Keep the rubber side down

 

[82Shafty]

+1 on this.
Amazingly, the bike almost always makes the curve, unless panic gets the rider.
Gentle braking can help too, unless the tires' traction is already maxed out from cornering. (It's not maxed out on a stock GS, unless the rubber is stone age or we are on wet roads. They just can't lean that far)
A lowside like this is preferable to a highside or just driving off the road right side up.
A good argument for track day practice.
We've all gone into a corner too hot.
Some of us have lived through it.

I certainly won't bs anyone. We all have talked the talk in such a manner as only people who don't have experience lock up the rear tire or panic when they shouldn't, but the truth is, I found myself in a real tight spot heading into work the other day and after I came out of it, I thought to myself what did I do wrong.

One, I was going around a guy keeping up with Big Bear on his HD and in the process, I gave the bike more throttle than it really needed to have. This was the #1 problem; I gave it too much juice.

Two, as I came around and went to get back into the lane, a turn was approaching with slippery RR tracks faster than I could comprehend. My mind struggled with leaning hard and needing to be upright for those tracks.

Three, I hit the back brake and the bike started to get a bit squirrely and the feel and the sound alone had me lay off of it (the back brake), but my response was to keep threshold braking as best as I could with the rear tire.

Four, there was a 4 inch curb that was going to make or break me and I could swear I scathed it, but my tires never had a mark on them. ( I focused on the wrong thing)

Five, I don't even recall touching the front brake because I felt as though I was leaning too much, nor do I recall pulling in the clutch. I honestly might have pulled in the clutch, just don't recall doing so.

I learned a lot from that situation, stuff I knew and how I should have reacted differently than I did, but you know what, I didn't and I certainly can admit that. I can only hope that by continuing to recite, practice, and by keeping my motorcycle senses up that the next situation will be handled more-appropriately.

 

[earlfor]

Here's a pretty good example of no front brake. But we all
know he did this to avoid hitting the dumpster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7wH7WDUvF0

Hmmmm, learned how to do a wheelie, but not how to stop. I guess his priorities are different than mine. LOL


Earl

 

[earlfor]

+1 on this.
Amazingly, the bike almost always makes the curve, unless panic gets the rider.
Gentle braking can help too, unless the tires' traction is already maxed out from cornering. (It's not maxed out on a stock GS, unless the rubber is stone age or we are on wet roads. They just can't lean that far)
A lowside like this is preferable to a highside or just driving off the road right side up.
A good argument for track day practice.
We've all gone into a corner too hot.
Some of us have lived through it.

If you decide to lay it down, you have already given up and resolved yourself to a crash. That is not an option to me.

My preset response if I'm too fast into a turn, assuming the turn is not conducive to momentarily braking, is to lean the bike until the damn mirrors are scraping if need be, and add the power needed to maintain suspension balance and good tracking through the turn. 99 times out of 100, the bike will make it. Its the riders mindset that causes the crash.
Never give up.

Earl

 

[Riding Again]

This site is great for learning and resources for new techniques. Gotta read a few books.

How about them corners with gravel causing involuntary bike laydowns?