low voltage on idle

[posplayr]

I seem to recall reading somewhere about a switch over for the two regulators. Where at low rpm's it would use the one regulator, and at high RPM's it'd switch over to the other regulator. I wonder if that is a legitimate way if using the best of both types?

Posplayr- can you verify the vac to ground village not being an issue?

when any regulator is below the threshold voltage for control, should NOT regulate the output voltage . It simply rectifies the voltage to develop a DC out. So until your RPM reaches about 2500 RPM and the output voltage is below 14.25V - 14.5V (approximately) then there is no regulation and all R/R's pretty much look the same.

There are still small differences due to the way the rectification is done, either

• a full diode bridge,
• or SCR's
• or a combination of the two
• or FET synchronous rectification.

I mentioned before the only time the stator is independent or floated from the chassis is when it is open (i.e. the three stator wires are disconnected. Other there is a voltage connection through the diodes (or diode equivalent) in the R/R.

 

[bwanna]

Posplayr - I did your revised Phase A testing and lo and behold I discovered that my voltmeter in my console is about .5v lower than the reading I took with my VOM at the regulator output. This does change everything. SO, I'll admit that the previous posts are erroneous due to bad information, which I'll research later (to find out why my console meter is reading low).

For now, both the 775 and the shunt are reading appropriate in all respects to both the revised Phase A and Revised Phase B test procedures. I did notice that the 775 vdc has a nice linear voltage increase with RPMs. The shunt r/r kinda goes from the 12.8 upto the 13.9-14.4 rather suddenly about 2200 RPM. Then it holds there fairly level through to 5k. I think this simply demonstrates the differences in the internal circuitry and not an indicator that one is not working correctly.

So, I'll humbly admit error in my original information.

Thanks for the feedback and info! I am comfortable with the setup I have now and have also learned a bit more about the idiosyncrasies of this bike.

CHeers.

 

[posplayr]

Posplayr - I did your revised Phase A testing and lo and behold I discovered that my voltmeter in my console is about .5v lower than the reading I took with my VOM at the regulator output. This does change everything. SO, I'll admit that the previous posts are erroneous due to bad information, which I'll research later (to find out why my console meter is reading low).

For now, both the 775 and the shunt are reading appropriate in all respects to both the revised Phase A and Revised Phase B test procedures. I did notice that the 775 vdc has a nice linear voltage increase with RPMs. The shunt r/r kinda goes from the 12.8 upto the 13.9-14.4 rather suddenly about 2200 RPM. Then it holds there fairly level through to 5k. I think this simply demonstrates the differences in the internal circuitry and not an indicator that one is not working correctly.

So, I'll humbly admit error in my original information.

Thanks for the feedback and info! I am comfortable with the setup I have now and have also learned a bit more about the idiosyncrasies of this bike.

CHeers.

BTW, your VOM measurements should be at the Battery and not the R/R out.

If you confirmed in the Revised Phase A that the voltage drops or negligible, then they Batt or R/R would be the same which is the whole point of the revised test to make sure they are the same at full load.

The original test only tested at idle which is when there is nothing much flowing between R/R and battery and so voltage drops were not nearly as pronounced as under load.

 

[bwanna]

BTW, your VOM measurements should be at the Battery and not the R/R out.

If you confirmed in the Revised Phase A that the voltage drops or negligible, then they Batt or R/R would be the same which is the whole point of the revised test to make sure they are the same at full load.

The original test only tested at idle which is when there is nothing much flowing between R/R and battery and so voltage drops were not nearly as pronounced as under load.

The voltage drop from the r/r to the battery was about .12v

 

[Oliverstrother]

Some very interesting discussions here!

So with a brand spanking new alternator, and a Sh-775. Will this successfully juice and a pair of 55/60W main beams?

 

[posplayr]

Some very interesting discussions here!

So with a brand spanking new alternator, and a Sh-775. Will this successfully juice and a pair of 55/60W main beams?

That is a different question, It can only produce the power, the distribution of that power is another question. You can do point designs as is embodied in the

http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Wiring_Kits/H4_Kits/h4_kits.html

and

various coil relays mods

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/images/coil_relay_mod.html

http://maniccycles.blogspot.com/2012/09/ignition-coil-relay-mod.html


Or you could opt for the SSPB to take care of it all at once including HID.
(see signature)

 

[bwanna]

Some very interesting discussions here!

So with a brand spanking new alternator, and a Sh-775. Will this successfully juice and a pair of 55/60W main beams?

While I figured out what my voltage issues were, I think the WYE configured stators leave a little to desire on the amp output. I'm going to take a stock stator and reconfigure it into a delta and use a SH775 regulator, to see if it can handle the load of 3 55w HID lights at idle. If the amp output is sufficient, I"m hoping the voltage drop won't occur.

If this works, could be an easy change over to satisfy us amp-hungry riders!

See this attached article about the process.

http://procycle.us/info/articles/dr650/wye-to-delta-stator.html

 

[posplayr]

While I figured out what my voltage issues were, I think the WYE configured stators leave a little to desire on the amp output. I'm going to take a stock stator and reconfigure it into a delta and use a SH775 regulator, to see if it can handle the load of 3 55w HID lights at idle. If the amp output is sufficient, I"m hoping the voltage drop won't occur.

If this works, could be an easy change over to satisfy us amp-hungry riders!

See this attached article about the process.

http://procycle.us/info/articles/dr650/wye-to-delta-stator.html

Three 55 WATT HID watt bulbs at idle???? Get a bigger battery. That is 15 amps ignoring startup. Your charging system might be capable of 18 amps max (for everything) at 3-4K RPM. I measured about 4.6 amps after warm up on my HID bulbs. You might get away with Three 35 Watt bulbs. The coil takes 3 amps as well and then there are those pesky signal lights.

Just so you know the maximum current in the stator is based on the strength and sizing of the magnetic rotor. At low speed the voltage and current go up in proportion to RPM which means that the power is going up to the square of the RPM. However as the current increases so also does the magnetic flux in the magnetic circuits of the stator/rotor combination. An there is only so much flux that the iron is capable of carrying before it "saturates".

That means there is a maximum limit on the current in the stator due to the rotor. Doesn't matter how you wind the rotor (delta, Wye, thousands of windings per pole) at some speed the magnetics saturate and the current stops going up.

What this means is that there is a current limit only and not a power limit. However since the regulator is a voltage limiter to protect the battery and other components and keep then below 14.5v you basically have a power limit.

The guy that wrote this article was just dreaming
http://procycle.us/info/articles/dr650/wye-to-delta-stator.html

And this "Electrical Enginner" that admitted he knew little about electromagicalism systems proved that fact with his analysis.

May I draw your attention to his Thevenin equivalent model where he says that

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189734

A stator behaves like an ideal voltage source with a series resistance. The voltage is proportional to the engine RPM and the number of turns in the winding, the resistance is proportional to the engine RPM and the square of the number of turns in the winding.

What is remarkable is that he concludes that resistance goes up in proportion to RPM. Perhaps it is because he assumed the current roll off was due to impedance of the big "L" (inductance of the stator) Good guess but absolutely and patently wrong.

Well this is too much empirical evidence extrapolated to vudo engineering. Probably hails from the software department and I'm sure never took the "sparks and magic" class I did.

read em and weep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic)

http://phys.thu.edu.tw/~hlhsiao/mse-web_ch20.pdf



If you want more power out of your system you will need to use a Series R/R and switch out all your light to LED. The 55W H4 dual beam HID from DDM I'm currently testing doesn't pull any more than the original H4 bulb.

For comparable brightness bulbs I'm seeing about 8 to 1 difference (0.7A v.s. 0.6A) in current consumption between an incandescent 1157 bulb and a LED lamp.

 

[tom203]

Don't rush him- I wanted to see how well the SH-775 would do with this heavy 3 light load. Depending on its mounting and airflow, it might be at it's limit (of course, his stator will be tortured during this testing)

 

[tkent02]

Jim, with a good clean electrical system and a 775 R/R will the 18 pole stators make more power than the older 12 pole stators, all else being equal?

 

[bwanna]

Three 55 WATT HID watt bulbs at idle???? Get a bigger battery. That is 15 amps ignoring startup. Your charging system might be capable of 18 amps max (for everything) at 3-4K RPM. I measured about 4.6 amps after warm up on my HID bulbs. You might get away with Three 35 Watt bulbs. The coil takes 3 amps as well and then there are those pesky signal lights.

Just so you know the maximum current in the stator is based on the strength and sizing of the magnetic rotor. At low speed the voltage and current go up in proportion to RPM which means that the power is going up to the square of the RPM. However as the current increases so also does the magnetic flux in the magnetic circuits of the stator/rotor combination. An there is only so much flux that the iron is capable of carrying before it "saturates".

That means there is a maximum limit on the current in the stator due to the rotor. Doesn't matter how you wind the rotor (delta, Wye, thousands of windings per pole) at some speed the magnetics saturate and the current stops going up.

What this means is that there is a current limit only and not a power limit. However since the regulator is a voltage limiter to protect the battery and other components and keep then below 14.5v you basically have a power limit.

The guy that wrote this article was just dreaming
http://procycle.us/info/articles/dr650/wye-to-delta-stator.html

And this "Electrical Enginner" that admitted he knew little about electromagicalism systems proved that fact with his analysis.

May I draw your attention to his Thevenin equivalent model where he says that

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189734



What is remarkable is that he concludes that resistance goes up in proportion to RPM. Perhaps it is because he assumed the current roll off was due to impedance of the big "L" (inductance of the stator) Good guess but absolutely and patently wrong.

Well this is too much empirical evidence extrapolated to vudo engineering. Probably hails from the software department and I'm sure never took the "sparks and magic" class I did.

read em and weep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic)

http://phys.thu.edu.tw/~hlhsiao/mse-web_ch20.pdf



If you want more power out of your system you will need to use a Series R/R and switch out all your light to LED. The 55W H4 dual beam HID from DDM I'm currently testing doesn't pull any more than the original H4 bulb.

For comparable brightness bulbs I'm seeing about 8 to 1 difference (0.7A v.s. 0.6A) in current consumption between an incandescent 1157 bulb and a LED lamp.

In summary, what would you expect to see if I took a stock stator for my 82 450 and reconfigured it as a Delta setup with the SH775?

Would it still provide proper voltage output at lower RPMS to charge the battery and run the bike?

Would there be excessive stress on the stator or the R/R?

Considering all that I've read, I'm not as comfortable as I was with making dramatic changes (rewinding, changing wire thickness, changing number of turns, etc.) However, as a matter of science is it possible to accurately recalculate (forecast) what will happen with this reconfiguration?

Thanks,

 

[tom203]

I doubt a delta wound stator (in this size) would deliver enough voltage at idle speed-that's why these things are wound wye , to ensure some charging into harness as bike idles.

 

[posplayr]

In summary, what would you expect to see if I took a stock stator for my 82 450 and reconfigured it as a Delta setup with the SH775?

Would it still provide proper voltage output at lower RPMS to charge the battery and run the bike?

Would there be excessive stress on the stator or the R/R?

Considering all that I've read, I'm not as comfortable as I was with making dramatic changes (rewinding, changing wire thickness, changing number of turns, etc.) However, as a matter of science is it possible to accurately recalculate (forecast) what will happen with this reconfiguration?

Thanks,

If you read what I wrote and do a little more research you should be able t o answer all of those questions yourself. I have basically already told you it is a n excersize in futility. And although there maybe some variations in what happens at lower RPM with WYE v.s. Delta the 5K RPM result will be the same.

 

[posplayr]

I doubt a delta wound stator (in this size) would deliver enough voltage at idle speed-that's why these things are wound wye , to ensure some charging into harness as bike idles.

While there is a lot more to stator design than Wye v.s. Delta for a simple swap between the configuration you are probably exactly correct.

Basically with an ideal PM alternator voltage and current would go up proportional to RPM and so power delivered would go up to the Square of RPM. So there is only a relatively narrow RPM range where you are either NOT current limited due to the magnetic saturation effects or NOT voltage limited due to the integrated regulator pre set to 14.5V.

Neither Wye or Delta or anything else for that matter about the stator pole winding has any impact on these two limits. The stator is part of the magnetic path so there is a tie in there with the current limit.

 

[koolaid_kid]

The best change would be to unplug 2 of those headlights or convert to LEDs.
Asking a 30+ year old system that was designed to output 18 Amps (max) to carry all that extra load is not reasonable.
Let me put it another way; the extra 110 Watts is about 9 Amps extra current draw you are putting on the system, or half its maximum rated output. Does that sound reasonable to you?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I am just asking you to think through the logic of what you are attempting to do.

 

[Oliverstrother]

Sooo...

3 x 55w HIDs = ambitious.

2 x 55w H4s = wires are going get a little hot.

This bike of mine only came with a pair of main beam boxes, does it need replacing?

You can't turn the running lights off either, so I was going to wire the stator such that all three coils were feeding the r/r constantly. Rather than have the third coil activated by the main beam switch.

 

[koolaid_kid]

3 x 55 = keep a stack of stators around.
2x55 = expect to be replacing connectors and melted wires.
LED headlights = everyone is happy.

 

[Oliverstrother]

can you get led main beams?

 

[koolaid_kid]

Absolutely. Just google LED H4 headlight bulbs.

 

[Oliverstrother]

I do so, but many of the reviews indicate they're either unsuitable for night driving, or illegal. Are there any which are suitable?