low voltage on idle

[koolaid_kid]

Since this is really a separate issue, you may want to start another thread. Title it something like: "Any recommendations for LED H4 headlight bulbs?" or "I would like to replace my H4 headlight bulb with an LED headlight bulb. Suggestions?"
You get my drift. It might also help other GSR members, and would make it easier for others to do a search later on.

 

[tkent02]

Some of the guys riding dirt bikes at night around here have incredibly bright LED headlights. So bright I was trying to stay ahead of them to see where I was going with my single Halogen bulb.
They stop or turn, I'm blinded by the darkness.

You have to pay a little bit more but it's worth it.

Yeah, this should be a new thread.

 

[bwanna]

The best change would be to unplug 2 of those headlights or convert to LEDs.
Asking a 30+ year old system that was designed to output 18 Amps (max) to carry all that extra load is not reasonable.
Let me put it another way; the extra 110 Watts is about 9 Amps extra current draw you are putting on the system, or half its maximum rated output. Does that sound reasonable to you?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I am just asking you to think through the logic of what you are attempting to do.

So True. Folks considering to add lights or upgrade the Halogen really need to closely evaluate and monitor their setup. Prior to the upgrades my original stock stator went, not unexpected. I upgraded it to a headier duty stator that provided a few more amps. Then I switch out all of my lights to LEDs (turn, brake, indicators, etc.). This lowered the overall demand allowing me to add the two add'l lights. Recently I switched to a series regulator. The changes have worked, however, I only use the two add'l lights when cruising at road speed. Within the city (DC) those aren't necessary, plus at idle the stator isn't capable of fully supporting the demand. It's all a delicate balance of tradeoffs. I added a voltage and amp meter to the console so I can monitor all of this. THAT has been the biggest help.

On average, at cruise speed with just the headlight the total demand is about 3-4amps. With my heated clothing, that gets raised to about 7-10amps total. If I add the two add'l lights then it raises again to 14-17 amps. The upgraded stator is capable of about 22 amps output and I plan for SH775 to carry about 30 amps max. (It's mounted upfront to a nice heatsink plate. In the summer I obviously won't need the heated gear, so that will reduce the overall demand to about half of what the new setup is capable.

Your caution is well founded... I don't view it as argumentative at all. thanks for raising it!

 

[bwanna]

Since this is really a separate issue, you may want to start another thread. Title it something like: "Any recommendations for LED H4 headlight bulbs?" or "I would like to replace my H4 headlight bulb with an LED headlight bulb. Suggestions?"
You get my drift. It might also help other GSR members, and would make it easier for others to do a search later on.

I'd enjoy hearing everyone's research. Having looked into the HID vs LED topic, I've not found enough evidence to feel comfortable with LEDs... yet. Jury is still out!

 

[Oliverstrother]

I think ill pull out one of the standard h4s and replace it with an LED. At least then I have one of each, still have a decent main beam and have reduced the power drain.

 

[tom203]

....

You can't turn the running lights off either, so I was going to wire the stator such that all three coils were feeding the r/r constantly. Rather than have the third coil activated by the main beam switch.

Absolutely - stator wires to R/R directly . You did read this link ,right???

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1138531&postcount=1

 

[Oliverstrother]

I did, however I wasn't sure it was a great idea! Surely the 3rd coil being activated by the headlight switch was for a reason. Just I've double my running lights and main beams. So a bit more juice is in order (hope the wires don't melt).

 

[tkent02]

With the old bikes headlight switched off and using a shunt regulator, it made sense to turn off one leg of the stator. I think with the series R/R there is no longr any reason at all to turn off one leg, even with the light switched off.

Is this right? I ride with my light off a lot on dirt roads and rough back roads to keep from breaking the hot filament.

 

[posplayr]

So True. Folks considering to add lights or upgrade the Halogen really need to closely evaluate and monitor their setup. Prior to the upgrades my original stock stator went, not unexpected. I upgraded it to a headier duty stator that provided a few more amps. Then I switch out all of my lights to LEDs (turn, brake, indicators, etc.). This lowered the overall demand allowing me to add the two add'l lights. Recently I switched to a series regulator. The changes have worked, however, I only use the two add'l lights when cruising at road speed. Within the city (DC) those aren't necessary, plus at idle the stator isn't capable of fully supporting the demand. It's all a delicate balance of tradeoffs. I added a voltage and amp meter to the console so I can monitor all of this. THAT has been the biggest help.

[#1]On average, at cruise speed with just the headlight the total demand is about 3-4amps. With my heated clothing, that gets raised to about 7-10amps total. [#2]If I add the two add'l lights then it raises again to 14-17 amps. The upgraded stator is capable of about 22 amps output and I plan for SH775 to carry about 30 amps max. (It's mounted upfront to a nice heatsink plate. In the summer I obviously won't need the heated gear, so that will reduce the overall demand to about half of what the new setup is capable.

Your caution is well founded... I don't view it as argumentative at all. thanks for raising it!

re comment [#1] I assume this is the electrical load and does not include the battery or headlamps.

I have measured the various load circuits from an OEM fuse box and
O/W (IGNITION) with ignitor and Accel coils at 2.5 amps average
O/R (HEADLAMP) and the H-4 headlamp at 5 amps unless you are shutting it off.
O/G (SIGNAL) is also 5 amps depending upon brakes and signals. That can be taken down to less than 1 amp with LED's
You still have about 3 amps going into a 14 ampHr Lead-acid battery to keep it at 14.5V.

re comment [#2]
It is interesting that you can deliver 14-17 amps to the electrical load. Depending on your battery voltage thee is probably something left over to charge the battery. I have never done tests for maximum current draw from the R/R while maintaining full charging voltage (i.e. 14.5V).

You seem to be setup with that with enough loads to tax the system.


In the Compufire v.s. MOSFET testing I did where I measured the stator currents. I came up with a saturated current limit under the shunting condition of about 27 amps maximum(I checked the chart). The Series Compufire does not short the stator so it peaked out at the load current of 15 amps presumably well below the maximum current the stator can provide.

It would be interesting to know with the setup you have now, what the total current is going to both the battery and the electrical load when your charging system just begins to drop voltage (say down to 14.25V rather than 14.5V) because of too much draw.

You would have to measure the voltage at the output of the R/R and not at the Battery for the tests to be valid.

It would be interesting if you could get as high as the short circuit stator current in current delivered to the load. I guess I could do the same test but would need to get a similar configuration to uses with enough variable loads to start to drag the charging voltage down. Not going to happen soon.

Other than this I only have some empirical evidence there is more headroom than the 15 amp demand from people that have reported adding additional accessories without issue. A set of heated grips and vest might add another 5 amps for example making the total 20 amps, but in the back of my mind I have 18 amps noted. If you add the accessories and it pulls the R/R voltage down they you have exceeded the current capacity. So monitoring the voltage while adding the loads is necessary to claim the excess capacity of the system.

 

[tom203]

With the old bikes headlight switched off and using a shunt regulator, it made sense to turn off one leg of the stator. I think with the series R/R there is no longr any reason at all to turn off one leg, even with the light switched off.

Is this right? I ride with my light off a lot on dirt roads and rough back roads to keep from breaking the hot filament.

When I installed the SH-775 on my bike last june, I checked this at 1200 rpm,
headlight on- 13 volts stator leg current 6.7 amps
headlight off- 13 volts stator leg current 3.5 amps
So, I say you are safe to run with headlight off as you scamper about.

Edit; remember that my clamp-on meter is not exact at these frequencies, but it should be close at indicating what the R/R is doing

 

[bwanna]

re comment [#1] I assume this is the electrical load and does not include the battery or headlamps.

I have measured the various load circuits from an OEM fuse box and
O/W (IGNITION) with ignitor and Accel coils at 2.5 amps average
O/R (HEADLAMP) and the H-4 headlamp at 5 amps unless you are shutting it off.
O/G (SIGNAL) is also 5 amps depending upon brakes and signals. That can be taken down to less than 1 amp with LED's
You still have about 3 amps going into a 14 ampHr Lead-acid battery to keep it at 14.5V.

re comment [#2]
It is interesting that you can deliver 14-17 amps to the electrical load. Depending on your battery voltage thee is probably something left over to charge the battery. I have never done tests for maximum current draw from the R/R while maintaining full charging voltage (i.e. 14.5V).

You seem to be setup with that with enough loads to tax the system.


In the Compufire v.s. MOSFET testing I did where I measured the stator currents. I came up with a saturated current limit under the shunting condition of about 27 amps maximum(I checked the chart). The Series Compufire does not short the stator so it peaked out at the load current of 15 amps presumably well below the maximum current the stator can provide.

It would be interesting to know with the setup you have now, what the total current is going to both the battery and the electrical load when your charging system just begins to drop voltage (say down to 14.25V rather than 14.5V) because of too much draw.

You would have to measure the voltage at the output of the R/R and not at the Battery for the tests to be valid.

It would be interesting if you could get as high as the short circuit stator current in current delivered to the load. I guess I could do the same test but would need to get a similar configuration to uses with enough variable loads to start to drag the charging voltage down. Not going to happen soon.

Other than this I only have some empirical evidence there is more headroom than the 15 amp demand from people that have reported adding additional accessories without issue. A set of heated grips and vest might add another 5 amps for example making the total 20 amps, but in the back of my mind I have 18 amps noted. If you add the accessories and it pulls the R/R voltage down they you have exceeded the current capacity. So monitoring the voltage while adding the loads is necessary to claim the excess capacity of the system.

That's what I've been wanting, is to measure what demand is placed on the R/R while adequately supplying the system, including charging the battery, etc.

.

 

[Gorminrider]

With the old bikes headlight switched off and using a shunt regulator, it made sense to turn off one leg of the stator. I think with the series R/R there is no longr any reason at all to turn off one leg, even with the light switched off.

Is this right? I ride with my light off a lot on dirt roads and rough back roads to keep from breaking the hot filament.

gee that's a good idea! (headlamp off to save filament) I don't know the exact answer but it makes enough sense it could be true... beyond the
Wikipedia stuff which gives an obscure sort of answer:
"The wires used to support the filament make it mechanically stronger, but remove heat, creating another tradeoff between efficiency and long life...
Many general-service 120-volt lamps use no additional support wires, but lamps designed for "rough service" or "vibration service" may have as many as five. Low-voltage lamps have filaments made of heavier wire and do not require additional support wires."

...That suggests car type headlamps have a certain amount of design protection being 12volt. I looked around and "rough service bulbs" are mostly 110V. Still, A lower wattage bulb specifically for a bike might be best (not a car headlamp bulb) or yes, just turn it off!

 

[tkent02]

I'm not sure halogen bulbs do the broken filament thing, but back in pre-halogen days it happened a lot. I got a couple tickets for burned out lights beause of it, when they started that rule. I have been turning them off on rough roads since, when I can.

Yeah, probably not needed at all with Halogen or LEDs.

 

[Oliverstrother]

So quick update, brand new stator, brand new R/R, wired directly to the battery.

Stator is putting out about 65V.

Rectifier (an SH-775AB) is putting 3 shades of nothing. Had the multimeter on it this afternoon and can't get any measurements from it at all.

All i can get is 5.59Mohms across the output terminals (1 way only, zero the other).
Zero continuity across any two connections in any combination.
Zero readings on a diode test across any two connections in any combination.

What tests can i perform?

Do the rotating magnets wear down over time? lose flux?

 

[Gorminrider]

If you are getting 65vac from stator your magnets are fine. But sticking a screw driver on em is a sure test.
Pretty rare to lose the magnetism unless you heat the magnets up very hot or smash them repeatedly with a hammer accurately (an especially bad idea with ceramic magnets)...enough of either to disorient the atomic structure!

I can't tell anything from your comment per R/R except it looks like there's a diode somewhere...you probably can't test it statically,out of circuit, with just two probes from a multimeter. I sure couldn't.Not without attaching other wires from an adjustable power source yadada
That is, it needs minimum input at a higher v than the output to battery, a ground -,sense wire and output connected to work at all.
and why would I when all I care about is....

With bike Running.
WHAT VDC do I get across battery terminals when all connections are correct?
Try with headlight on and headlight off. increase the revs too.
Does the R/R get REALLY HOT? Stop! check connections, if it's not too late.

You try.

 

[tom203]

"...... brand new R/R, wired directly to the battery."

First, please tell me you have an inline fuse on + feed!
Second, test your meter (on DC scale) on battery -got 12.5 volts or so??
Third,what's a SH-775AB ? is this part #4012941
Fourth, is your meter on DC scale when you look for R/R output?

Edit; you aren't trying to measure DC output when the R/R isn't connected to battery,right???

 

[JTGS850GL]

Third,what's a SH-775AB ? is this part #4012941

The SH-775AB is the printed number on the Polaris parts. That's what's printed on mine as well.

 

[Oliverstrother]

A bit more info.

- Rang the supplier, there is no check with a multimeter that can be done on an SH775 to check its functionality.
- R/R gets warm (not hot at all).
- Max voltage across the battery is 13.3VDC after running at 5k rpm for 2-3mins constantly.
- It is wired correctly, which is why I'm confused.
- Yup, know how to use a multimeter.
- R/R is printed with SH775BA & 4012941.
-R/R is outputting whatever the battery reads. I've been advised not to test it unless connected to the battery. I.E there is little or no voltage drop from the R/R to the battery.
- Yep have an in line 30A fuse between R/R and battery.
- Flywheel would pass the screwdriver test easily.
- The R/R probably has some kind of threshold to make it function (guess 20VAC), but I'm well beyond that.

The battery check for charging is supposed to be done on a fully charged battery. I'm going to charge it over night and see how it checks in the morning.

I honestly think its charging, just it isn't very good at it.

Also, the Suzuki maintenance manual says unless you get 80VAC across the stator wires when running at 5000rpm replace the stator. but I'll only get the 65-70V. i think this is BS or they were being optimistic.

 

[tom203]

When you did the 65 AC test -did you also test/look for stator leg to ground voltage?

 

[posplayr]

A bit more info.

- Rang the supplier, there is no check with a multimeter that can be done on an SH775 to check its functionality.
- R/R gets warm (not hot at all).
- Max voltage across the battery is 13.3VDC after running at 5k rpm for 2-3mins constantly.
- It is wired correctly, which is why I'm confused.
- Yup, know how to use a multimeter.
- R/R is printed with SH775BA & 4012941.
-R/R is outputting whatever the battery reads. I've been advised not to test it unless connected to the battery. I.E there is little or no voltage drop from the R/R to the battery.
- Yep have an in line 30A fuse between R/R and battery.
- Flywheel would pass the screwdriver test easily.
- The R/R probably has some kind of threshold to make it function (guess 20VAC), but I'm well beyond that.

The battery check for charging is supposed to be done on a fully charged battery. I'm going to charge it over night and see how it checks in the morning.

I honestly think its charging, just it isn't very good at it.

Also, the Suzuki maintenance manual says unless you get 80VAC across the stator wires when running at 5000rpm replace the stator. but I'll only get the 65-70V. i think this is BS or they were being optimistic.

If I have not recommended before, run the simple "Quick Test" and report the results. It is in my signature.

And 13.3V is not what you reported here. What Changed?

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=2021415&postcount=11

Other quick stats (after 5-10mins running from a fully charged battery)
1.) key off................Normal 12.7 volts-12.9 volts (Actual 12.3, 13 if I charge the battery first, battery is new)
2.) key on (but not cranking with lights for 10 sec).....Normal 12.2-12.5 volts (Actual 12.0v)
3.) at idle (1500 rpm).....12.6volts - 13.2volts (Actual 12.3V)
4.) at 2500 rpm 13.5 -14.0 volts (Actual 12.7V)
5.) at 5000 rpm.....14.0 -15.0 volts (Actual 13.0V)
6.) key off.....slightly higher than measurements # 1 (12.8-13.0v) (Actual 12.4V)

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=2021443&postcount=13

This thread suggests running Revised Phase B tests; did you do that? You apparently have a marginal case.

You also said you had no voltage drops between R/R and battery, Did you measure at 5000 RPM and what were the measurements. You would have to be a real champ for them to be below 0.1V on both sides the first time.