We definitely need more facts. And there is also much misinformation on concealed carry holders. Everyone is different in how they will react to a situation but one of the most important things you are taught in defensive handgun classes is avoidance. Trevor is right, she should have rode away. Your also taught that if you need to draw your firearm and are in fear for your life you shoot to stop the threat. You don?t shoot to kill, you shoot at center mass until the threat stops. Shooting at legs or arms is only done in the movies. Under a highly stressful situation with that adrenaline dump most people and police don?t even see their sights when shooting.
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Motorcyclist in road rage shooting
- Thread starter bobgroger
- Start date
It's all good Keith, just commenting.
Trevor, not necessarily. If she wasn't expecting to be chased down and attacked, it may not have been so simple. Not everyone is constantly planning to be attacked, and yeah, I can say that at times, that shoulder may not work as a venue for escape.
As for shooting him in the leg, I think few people know what it's like to be attacked or even in a real fight where the stakes are high. Trust me-it's not a situation you can put on pause while you think it through, Sherlock Holmes style.
You shoot center mass to kill. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you a rainbow or a unicorn.
B
Boriqua
Guest
Well she was released from custody so at least the preliminary findings are it was self defense.
Having said that I am in no rush to say Poor woman poor woman out of hand. I spent my first 16 years in Rough housing projects in NYC. I have seen big, nasty, hard women who could put a good sized dent in a bunch of grown men. Add to the fact that while we all think we age like wine ... ya aint the man you were at 25 that you are when you are 60. My 56 yr old friend just got home from the hospital after a triple bypass and his back is so shot he can barely walk. I wont tell him but ... I knew a bunch of females that could currently beat him to a pulp.
However, at least in Arizona, you have the right to a proportional amount of force to the threat. The attacker doesn't need to present a weapon in order for someone to feel that their life is in danger and it has escalated to a need to answer with deadly force. If you are a 120 woman being beaten down by a 250 lb man or someone has you and is choking you out, or has hold of your ears and is battering your head into the ground .. they are trying to kill you and you can answer with deadly force.
Lets not forget the hockey dad murder
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/2...n-serving-time-beating-death-mass-father.html
Without having any details we don't know what happened and what was justified. She was released and there were a half dozen witnesses including one in the car with the now deceased. If it were clear that she acted excessively they wouldn't have let her go. Prosecutors may come back and see it differently but she has passed the initial sniff test.
If the 60 yr old got out and started assaulting this woman and then was relishing in getting the upper hand than he got what he asked for. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
If she felt she had super human powers because she had a firearm she may find that even if she is never charged, civil suits and the like could have her back and forth to courts for years and can make her life uncomfortable.
I am in my 50's and I just had some gentleman in at least his 70's cursing me up and down because he thought I took the corner to tight in front of him. He was coming to a stop and I was going 15 miles an hour?? I just laughed shook my head and moved on. Gotta pick your spots.
People just need to chill.
Having said that I am in no rush to say Poor woman poor woman out of hand. I spent my first 16 years in Rough housing projects in NYC. I have seen big, nasty, hard women who could put a good sized dent in a bunch of grown men. Add to the fact that while we all think we age like wine ... ya aint the man you were at 25 that you are when you are 60. My 56 yr old friend just got home from the hospital after a triple bypass and his back is so shot he can barely walk. I wont tell him but ... I knew a bunch of females that could currently beat him to a pulp.
However, at least in Arizona, you have the right to a proportional amount of force to the threat. The attacker doesn't need to present a weapon in order for someone to feel that their life is in danger and it has escalated to a need to answer with deadly force. If you are a 120 woman being beaten down by a 250 lb man or someone has you and is choking you out, or has hold of your ears and is battering your head into the ground .. they are trying to kill you and you can answer with deadly force.
Lets not forget the hockey dad murder
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/2...n-serving-time-beating-death-mass-father.html
Without having any details we don't know what happened and what was justified. She was released and there were a half dozen witnesses including one in the car with the now deceased. If it were clear that she acted excessively they wouldn't have let her go. Prosecutors may come back and see it differently but she has passed the initial sniff test.
If the 60 yr old got out and started assaulting this woman and then was relishing in getting the upper hand than he got what he asked for. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
If she felt she had super human powers because she had a firearm she may find that even if she is never charged, civil suits and the like could have her back and forth to courts for years and can make her life uncomfortable.
I am in my 50's and I just had some gentleman in at least his 70's cursing me up and down because he thought I took the corner to tight in front of him. He was coming to a stop and I was going 15 miles an hour?? I just laughed shook my head and moved on. Gotta pick your spots.
People just need to chill.
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1980GS850
Guest
i carried everywhere for many years. on a job about 4 years ago i was movng the van to the other side of the football field and had an altercatian. he told cops later i had cut off him at the corner and he had to brake hard to miss me. anyways i pull into the parking lot, never see him at all until suk pnuched me when i was getting out of the van. i saw stars after that, guess he punched me once or 2 times more according to witnesses but i was out for probably 20 seconds. i remember coming to and he was circling me i was on the ground and i reached into my back gun holster and came up with my 380 and before anything else two of my guys who had come across the field jumped him. that dude was secionds away from me blowing a hole in him over having to swerve and brake hard, ficking stupid! im glad i didn't shoot him though, not worth it. i don;t want to ever face that again so quit carrying after that. imagine dying or killing someone over traffic? not worth it but i can certanly see where the lady may have believed she had no options.
G
Guest
Guest
Obviously the best case scenario involves her riding away from the threat. Maybe she was not expecting to be attacked, and was caught off guard due to not being situationally aware. In my mind, the moment that man exited his car and assaulted the person on the motorcycle, that escalates the situation into one where deadly force can be used. And you are completely correct, any reputable training class is teaching center mass, shoot until the threat stops. I am completely surprised she only fired one shot; generally the adrenaline dump causes most people to reflexively fire several times. She did everything right after the shooting; calling the cops immediately and staying on scene will definitely help her case if they do bring charges against her.
Its probably just that Im in Texas, but I assume that almost everyone is carrying a weapon for self defense, either on their person, in their vehicle, or in their dwelling. I just figure everyone else know this as well and if they still choose to break into my home, or vehicle, or come at me aggressively while I'm stuck in traffic on my bike, they are obviously suicidal and choosing their time and method of demise.
If everyone did carry, this kind of crap would happen a lot less often.
Honestly, that's hard to assume. Could happen a lot less, but could happen a lot more. Maybe we revert back to the old west days when everyone carried and the deciding factor was who was the quicker draw?
I doubt it. What we would probably get is nuts waving a gun every time some blew their horn at them.
wacky941
Forum Mentor
I disagree, just like in the old west, gun fights did occur but were actually rare occurrences, thats reality and the rest is Hollywood hype.
Here in Texas, all the anti gun crowd constantly warned of shootouts in the streets and a return to the wild west if concealed carry was passed. Concealed carry passed and gun violence in the state declined. The shootouts in the streets that do happen are committed by people who are illegally in possession of a gun.
Statistically, you are wrong. http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/concealed-carry/
While gunfights may have been somewhat less common in the Old West, assassination style shootings were plenty common. Rather than face each other in the street, it was more common for those with an ax to grind to find their antagonist drunk in a bar, or shacked up with a prostitute, or deep in a card game and shoot them when they couldn't defend themselves easily. The notion that more guns would make crime go down is stupid and has been debunked many times.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/
More guns may not be the cause of less crime but we certainly know more guns don't cause more crime. There are many more guns in the US now and the rate of crimes with guns has declined. Not by 5 or 10 percent, but by nearly half in only 20 years.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ata-showing-guns-less-crime-alternative-fact/
http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ata-showing-guns-less-crime-alternative-fact/
Ugh, a Breitbart link using the term alternative fact immediately after an article in a respected magazine.
To reiterate the point: More guns do not create less crime.
As to why gun crime is going down, here are five causes that have been observed, none of which has anything to do with increases in gun sales.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ited-states-heres-why/?utm_term=.ac37e0a80fdf
A drastic reduction in the availability of assault rifles and bump stocks would be likely to have some effect on the most disastrous types of gun crime.
To reiterate the point: More guns do not create less crime.
As to why gun crime is going down, here are five causes that have been observed, none of which has anything to do with increases in gun sales.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ited-states-heres-why/?utm_term=.ac37e0a80fdf
A drastic reduction in the availability of assault rifles and bump stocks would be likely to have some effect on the most disastrous types of gun crime.
G
Guest
Guest
When I've come within inches of being hit by a car, I'm often shaking with adrenaline fear+rage. I'm not safe to drive until I calm down, let alone ride a motorcycle in heavy traffic. Faced with a similar situation, and not having the 4-wheel driver attack me, I would have probably pulled onto the shoulder until I calmed myself down.
+++++
I won't purposely ride a motorcycle in traffic that heavy. There are often no escape routes when (not if, when) someone makes a mistake that endangers my life.
Yes, anyone can find a study to back his argument on a debate topic. I like facts. It doesn't matter if its reported on Fox News or CNN as long as its factual. All I'm saying is if more guns don't cause a reduction in crimes than on the contrary more guns don't mean more crime. There are many factors involved. I get my statistics from the FBI numbers. There are more guns in the U.S. now than 20 years ago but crime is down almost 50%.
We can certainly debate weather the FBI numbers are correct, heaven knows they have not been doing a stellar job lately.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/
We can certainly debate weather the FBI numbers are correct, heaven knows they have not been doing a stellar job lately.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/
You can find facts to support ANY position today. The correct position in most of them is somewhere between the extremes. I don't own a gun. Not because I have anything against them, I used to do competitive shooting years ago. But because I know my personality and the likelihood it might be used instead of taking a more reasonable path. Self-imposed gun control. I don't feel less safe because of it. What I recommend as a solution is a dashcam on everything you drive. I feel much better knowing I have the actual facts recorded. I am planning to upgrade to a front and rear cam soon.
And you seem hellbent on proving that you don't know what the facts show-which is NOT that more guns = less crime or that more guns = less gun deaths.
According to the Pew research article that I referenced it used FBI numbers. If you haven't read it, it says-"Using the FBI numbers, the violent crime rate fell 48% between 1993 and 2016" Looks like almost 50% to me. Someone needs to show me some reliable data that shows otherwise. And I never said that more guns mean less crime. I just said that more guns don't cause more crime. These FBI numbers, (not NRA numbers) show that.
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