Needle Setting

[tas850g]

Hi All,

i just want 2nd, 3rd, etc opinions on which notch the clip is in on this needle?

I am getting a stumble between 6-7K rpm's regardless to which gear I am in.

The Stock setting is either 2 or 3. Depending on which groove this is in should I raise the needle 1 or 2 notches?

Also, how many total notches are on this needle?

EDIT: I have stock exhaust and air box.

 

[cowboyup3371]

Because I know it will be asked later, what throttle setting, not RPM, is this at? Full, Half, 1/4?

 

[Steve]

I haven't done this much, but I'll take a stab at this.

There are SIX notches for the clip.

It is currently in #3.

The chart I have says that #2 is stock, so move it one more notch toward the point to raise the needle.

.

 

[tas850g]

Because I know it will be asked later, what throttle setting, not RPM, is this at? Full, Half, 1/4?

It depends on the gear I'm in. First gear, the throttle is less than 1/4 throttle. I was trying to figure that out when testing in other gears. It seemed to be based more on rpm's.

At 5500 rpms in 5th gear I think I'm going 85 mph, maybe. I know for sure at 4000 rpms I'm going about 65 mph. This is why I have only been able to test to about 3rd gear.

 

[tas850g]

Steve, I think you are correct on the number of slots but count which slot it is in from the bottom.

Actually, maybe I am reading it incorrectly. I am counting which slot it is in starting from the bottom of the needle.

Which way should I count from, the top or bottom of the needle?

 

[7981GS]

Counting from the pointed end or bottom, you need to set your E-clip in the third notch up.
You are running leaner than stock now.

Eric

 

[Steve]

Counting from the pointed end or bottom, you need to set your E-clip in the third notch up.
You are running leaner than stock now.

Eric

According to this reference, you count from the end away from the point.

.

 

[7981GS]

Fine. Either way, he needs to drop the clip towards the tip.
Or just pick a number that the both of you wish to call it, K.

For 40 years, I have been counting how many clips up from the tip. Thank you very much.
Before the internet.
He needs to be richer.
Raise the needle by dropping the clip closer to the point. Richer.
How ever you or anyone else wants want to make it confusing is fine by me.
He did not show a picture with two pointed ends and I made it simple and clear.
And, his needle has six locations to choose from anyway.

Eric

 

[Steve]

Fine. Either way, he needs to drop the clip towards the tip.

That has been stated several times, no argument there.

Or just pick a number that the both of you wish to call it, K.

I was just showing him how my source numbered it, I have seen the same info from other sources, too.

For 40 years, I have been counting how many clips up from the tip. Thank you very much.
Before the internet.

OK, you have me there, I have not been around bikes for 40 years, but doing something for a long time does not necessarily make it right.
Not saying you are wrong, just saying that I have seen different information.

He needs to be richer.
Raise the needle by dropping the clip closer to the point. Richer.

Again, that has already been stated, still no argument.

How ever you or anyone else wants want to make it confusing is fine by me.

Simple pictures, what is so confusing?

He did not show a picture with two pointed ends and I made it simple and clear.

He didn't even show a picture with ONE pointed end.
Nobody said you did not make it simple and clear.
I was only pointing him to the industry standard of counting the notches.

And, his needle has six locations to choose from anyway.

Nobody said anything different. In fact, I answered his question by saying that he had six. I am very sorry that the author of the article in the link from which I got the picture only showed five notches on his needle. It's quite possible that the author's needle only had five notches, and did not anticipate me clipping the picture to show it here, where Todd's poor needle has six notches.

.

 

[tas850g]

Thanks for the info. I'll raise the needle one notch and test it out.

 

[RobG1970]

:lol:....LOL.. OK Girls, your both pretty...LOLOLOLOL ... :lol:

 

[MisterCinders]

It depends on the gear I'm in. First gear, the throttle is less than 1/4 throttle. I was trying to figure that out when testing in other gears. It seemed to be based more on rpm's.

At 5500 rpms in 5th gear I think I'm going 85 mph, maybe. I know for sure at 4000 rpms I'm going about 65 mph. This is why I have only been able to test to about 3rd gear.

It doesn't depend on what gear you are in, unless you have a transmission issue (you don't).

The carbs are not connected to the tach, so RPMs and carb behavior are not related. The jets engage as the throttle opening increases, with some overlap. Basically, the jetting ladder is:

idle to 1/4 throttle - pilot circuit

1/4 to 3/4 throttle - needle

3/4 to WoT - main jet

What year is your 850? If it has CV carbs, then the main jet plays a role in all the circuits, so you have to tune from the main jet down. Not sure if the 850 ever came with VMs, but if you have VM carbs, you tune from the pilot jet up.

If you are in 5th at 5500, you are probably still in the needle circuit, because WoT in 5th would be a lot faster. But ignore the RPM and MPH when testing your carb settings. Focus on throttle position.

 

[7981GS]

 

[AJ]

I always count down from the blunt end like Steve shows, and agree with 7981gs that you probably need the move the clip towards the pointy end. If it gets better, you went in the right direction. (duh!)

Here's an easy test to remember. Get up to some reasonably speed, say 45 to 50. Shift down to a lower gear and open throttle to maintain speed. If you were at 4000 rpm in 5th with low throttle, then you'll be at 5500 in 4th at mid throttle and maybe 7000 in 3rd at high throttle. The idea is to let you ride in traffic while exploring different rpm/throttle combos at steady state. This is better than trying to just run up through the gears because it lets you explore instead of testing everything at high throttle while accelerating like most people do. Good luck.

 

[AJ]

Note I didn't read this thresd carefully. Carbs and rpm are definitely related, as rpm determines total airflow through the system. You think of throttle position because that's what you need to maintain rpm for a given gear. What you really want to do is test at steady state rpm at different rpms, and testing at different speeds for a given gear, or different gears for a given speed lets you do that.

 

[tas850g]

At first I just wanted to determine which was the 1st notch so I knew where I was starting from and which way to go according to specs. Who knows who and how many PO's have been inside e carbs. Therefore, I did jot expect it to be at stock settings.

Not to be a smart ass however, maybe I need to ask Mr. Yoshimura which notch is #1 because of the conflicting data.

This is for my GSXR.

Now, this leads me to the next question which I am experimenting with on my own. I dropped the needle clip down 1 notch to raise the needle and it ran worse. Still stumbling between 6-7k rpms but picked up a more mild stumble at 5k rpms.

So I raised the needle clip to the #2 or #5 notch depending on which source you are referring to and it ran better. Got rid of the 5k rpm stumble and less of a stumble between 6-7k rpms. I would hate to raise the clip to the top position to experiment with those results but I may do that this week if I get bored.

It has the stock pipe, air box but K & N filter, and jets. It's not too bad disassembiling and reassembling so i'll see what happens.

 

[AJ]

At first I just wanted to determine which was the 1st notch so I knew where I was starting from and which way to go according to specs. Who knows who and how many PO's have been inside e carbs. Therefore, I did jot expect it to be at stock settings.

Not to be a smart ass however, maybe I need to ask Mr. Yoshimura which notch is #1 because of the conflicting data.

This is for my GSXR.

Now, this leads me to the next question which I am experimenting with on my own. I dropped the needle clip down 1 notch to raise the needle and it ran worse. Still stumbling between 6-7k rpms but picked up a more mild stumble at 5k rpms.

So I raised the needle clip to the #2 or #5 notch depending on which source you are referring to and it ran better. Got rid of the 5k rpm stumble and less of a stumble between 6-7k rpms. I would hate to raise the clip to the top position to experiment with those results but I may do that this week if I get bored.

It has the stock pipe, air box but K & N filter, and jets. It's not too bad disassembiling and reassembling so i'll see what happens.

When you dropped the needle lower, the stumble got worse and started to happen at lower rpms (5K). When you raised the needle a notch from the starting mid position, it got better, but is still there. You are probably close. As you have seen, you're also getting faster at changing the needle clip setting. I'd recommend raising it one more notch and see what happens.

Unfortunately, if you're already good with the lower rpm ranges, all you can adjust after raising the needle again is either the main jet size (go bigger one size - step of 2.5) or a slimmer/more-tapered needle. Fiddling with the mixture screw won't help at all up in this range.

 

[tas850g]

AJ,

So you understand, I am lowering the needle therefore I should be getting less fuel making it lean. Am I understanding it correctly?

I have only one more notch before I reach the top of the needle. I should give it a try just to see. It almost seems to clear up once I get to 7500-8k rpms.

Thanks!

 

[Steel Toed Tank]

I'm just wondering, on my CV carbs, the throttle slide position can change drastically, changing from one jet to the next as the engine climbs through the RPMs while I keep the throttle at a steady 1/3rd.

How does the throttle handle position apply to throttle slide position throughout the different RPM ranges?


Tank

 

[AJ]

AJ,

So you understand, I am lowering the needle therefore I should be getting less fuel making it lean. Am I understanding it correctly?

I have only one more notch before I reach the top of the needle. I should give it a try just to see. It almost seems to clear up once I get to 7500-8k rpms.

Thanks!

Sorry, Tas, sounds like I misinterpreted your results. Let's refer to Steve's helpful diagram. The #1 top slot (blunt end) lowers the needle, making your mixture leaner. If you moved the clip to #2, you are one position leaner than the mid #3 setting, but not as lean as #1.

If I understand your statement correctly

I have only one more notch before I reach the top of the needle. I should give it a try just to see. It almost seems to clear up once I get to 7500-8k rpms.

your carburetion got better (smoother/more power through the band) when you lowered your need to the #2 position (Steve's diagram), and now you only have a small stumble at 7500-8000 and the stumble at lower RPM is gone. This change indicates that you were too rich in the middle (#3) position and dropping the needle to #2 to make it leaner made it run better.

Your original picture isn't clear enough for me to see if this is one of the needles with the rapid taper like Dynojet sells, but if it is and your pipes and airbox are stock, then being too rich in the mid position makes sense. Likewise, if you installed a larger main jet, being too rich makes sense, and lowering the needle to make it leaner should make it better. Go ahead and try the #1 clip position, if it gets worse, you went too lean.

Guess we should have asked what you were trying to do in the first place! E.g., Are you installing a Dynojet Stage 1 kit?