no power to ground

[tom203]

Common sense tells me that the gear is connected to the shock absorber, but a complete teardown is the only way to tell for sure,if I can find a fairly complete case for the right price I may go that route but I still will want to split the case and use fresh crank and rod bearings. Guess I'll just have to dive into mine "Head and years" as we rednecks say!

I like ambition! Methinks that shock dog is splined into bevel gear and spring pushes against the ramp- but you sound like you will find out for me and end all doubt. It's reassuring to see the bevel gears looking good at 56k.
For what you'll probably pay for parts, you could probably scoop a non-runner with low mileage -and have lots of spare parts to trip over.

 

[Normk]

On this or another thread, I asked whether the front & rear driveshaft gears are "hunting", "semi-nonhunting", or "non hunting" but haven't seen a response. Perhaps no one understood the question so will re-phrase because the concept is important.

Can anyone provide the numbers of teeth for the two gear pairs?

If the gear ratio has no decimals, the gear set is referred to as a "hunting" ratio because specific teeth on each gear only mesh with certain teeth on the other. An example would be for a 10 tooth driving gear which is meshed with a 30 tooth driven. It can be seen that any specific tooth on the smaller gear will contact four specific teeth on the larger. These teeth which contact one another are always the same and wear together to produce a pattern unique to these teeth. When these gear sets are removed, they should be marked so that the teeth are engaged in the same interaction as they are used to running. Failing to do so can create noise and excessive wear. The term is easy to understand as each tooth "hunts" for its opposite relationship.

If the gear ratio has one decimal, the teeth in contact will vary such that any tooth on the smaller gear will contact one of several teeth on the larger gear and will shift meshing between this certain grouping of teeth. This is called a "semi-nonhunting ratio". This type of gear set must also be marked although the effect may be less if it is placed out of time although this is conjecture on my part as have not tested the theory out of a wish to avoid acting more foolishly than needs be. Pulling and reassembling gear sets seems a less attractive activity than sitting comfortably with a coffee and a bun. It might be difficult to prove the effect as placing the gears out of mesh will produce noise and wear which may affect subsequent operation when placed back into the correct timing.

If the gear ratio has two or more decimals (only two are published) the teeth of one gear contact all of the teeth on the other so timing is unimportant.

Now, there's the explanation so everyone can see why consideration as to gear mesh timing is important so can someone provide numbers as I am far less altruistic than would be required to disassemble Suzie's drive in the interest of interest. I do wonder why "semi-nonhunting" rather than "semi-hunting" but that's another question.

 

[tom203]

Stumbling thru my parts bin, I found part of a secondary drive- the bevel gear gizmo- which I had assumed was from a 650 setup. Clearly, what I have is from a 850 setup- the bevel gear assembly that accepts the trans output and mates with the bevel gear driving the prop shaft. It has 16 teeth- I'll take a wild guess and bet that its mate also has 16 teeth. I'd hate to be the guy that spent his days at the Suzuki factory fitting these things up. After many miles, maybe this assembly should be reshimed for noise/play problems, but I'm not planning to live this long!

 

[cruiser58]

I'd hate to be the guy that spent his days at the Suzuki factory fitting these things up. After many miles, maybe this assembly should be reshimed for noise/play problems, but I'm not planning to live this long!

I'll bet the guy kept a bottle of saki under his workbench! I found a transmission set on evilbay and will install same with all the precision my feeler gauges and harbor freight dial indicator allow. I would like to get another 56k out of her but I'll settle for a few summers in the wind!:lol:

 

[tom203]

The 650 is great mid size bike- smooth and quiet, with enough power for most folks. Be sure to tell us what part actually failed when you get around to ripping it open.

 

[rustybronco]

On this or another thread, I asked whether the front & rear driveshaft gears are "hunting", "semi-nonhunting", or "non hunting" but haven't seen a response. Perhaps no one understood the question...

Perhaps you might want to consult the shop manual. in it I believe it will list the secondary gear ratios. but, I don't ever recall any timing marks on either gear so I think that might answer the question you seek. and, by the way, I've always known gear sets as hunting, partial hunting and non hunting.

 

[Normk]

Secondary reduction 1.062 17/16

Final drive reduction 3.090 34/11 Clearly this would be 34 for the crown gear so the numbers are listed in the reverse to normal practice.

According to my reading of Tom203's post the driving gear for the front set (secondary reduction) is 16 tooth so the numbers there are also reversed.

 

[cruiser58]

So if my "semi-neanderthol" cranium is interpreting this correctly the bevel gears are "non hunting" ? I do hope so because it is unlikely that whomever disassembled the trans that I purchased had the foresight to mark the bevel gears. Thanks guys!

 

[Normk]

Yeah, that was the point I was working around to but thought some background might be useful to someone and might bring out some stories and information which it has.

There's often madness to my method!

So if my "semi-neanderthol" cranium is interpreting this correctly the bevel gears are "non hunting" ? I do hope so because it is unlikely that whomever disassembled the trans that I purchased had the foresight to mark the bevel gears. Thanks guys!

 

[rustybronco]

cruser58,

When you go to re-assemble the secondary gears in the case, it might be wise to paint a few of the gears teeth with a gear marking compound (Kendall blue works as well) and double check the gears for proper tooth contact then check the back lash on them. chances are those will be just fine as assembled, but you never know who or what may have been done with the original shims. the reason I suggest you do it now is, it would be a bit unfortunate to find out somethings amiss 'after' the engine is back in the frame.

 

[tom203]

cruiser58;
Hopefully, the ebay seller will send the housing shims-if he hasn't already misplaced them; it's nice to have a starting point as you play with the positioning before you reach for your medication.

 

[cruiser58]

The seller did send the shims and the order was promptly shipped and seems to be in good condition (more on this later). I'm not sure of forum policy on mentioning vendor's in the posts but they have a lot of used bike parts and I'll probably use them again. Just waiting till after the holiday madness settles so I can get back to the man cave and tear the old beast down (or up ) Happy Holidays!

 

[cruiser58]

Well I've replaced the trans mainshaft and layshaft, secondary bevel gear, assorted seals and gaskets and the ol beast is coming together. When I tore it down I found a broken timing chain tensioner shoe, and still it ran and had logged a few miles like this judging from the wear marks on the end of the broken shoe! I assume some po just couldn't resist twisting that little knurled knob sticking out of the back of the engine, seems this would have been a good place for one of them idiotproof screws. Hopefully a couple more weekends will tell whether or not my labors have been for naught.View attachment 16188

 

[tom203]

Good work,I'm impressed- so you're having good luck getting parts? Another member recently posted about his 650 tranny locking up- you guys might be able to exchange horror stories! member is jzfn13

 

[cruiser58]

Thanks Tom, but I'm waiting til I hear it run before patting myself on the back(lol). I found the tranny parts on e bay but oem parts sure ain't cheap, timing chain tensioner(shoe) cost more than the tranny. And I admit I used an aftermarket gasket set, couldn't justify $120 for a head set before I learn a little more about the engine. But if nothing else I've had fun playing with it!

 

[tom203]

The smell of enthusiasm! You could have scooped a used tensioner assembly off ebay for less than $20 - they come up all time. Same two bolt unit was used on lots of models and years. Members here might have hordes of them! Anyways, just what did you find wrong in your tranny teardown?

 

[cruiser58]

The tensioner itself is fine, the "tensioner shoe" which slides against the chain is what I had to replace, broken in two right where the tensioner plunger hits it ( I know my pic ain't the best quality but check it out). I haven't disassembled my old mainshaft but the primary bevel gear can be turned by hand so I assume some splines are stripped. I torqued my clutch basket bolt by holding the secondary output so I think the new tranny will be ok, has all 5 gears and neutral when turned by hand.

 

[tom203]

The tensioner itself is fine, the "tensioner shoe" which slides against the chain is what I had to replace, broken in two right where the tensioner plunger hits it ( I know my pic ain't the best quality but check it out). I haven't disassembled my old mainshaft but the primary bevel gear can be turned by hand so I assume some splines are stripped. I torqued my clutch basket bolt by holding the secondary output so I think the new tranny will be ok, has all 5 gears and neutral when turned by hand.

Ok, got it ! If it's not too much trouble, could you tell me the length of this "shoe"- I got one in a parts lot, but my gut tells me it's too long for a 650.

 

[cruiser58]

The "tensioner" (and I do believe this is what they call it in the parts fitche, the plunger part is called a "cam chain adjuster" if I'm not mistaken) has a 90 degree curve on the end, I didn't try to measure the curve but total length looks to be about eight and a quarter inches.

This bike had been running with just the bottom half,from the "adjuster" down, can't believe it hadn't jumped time.
The part cost about 65 bucks plus shipping but this is not something that I would feel comfortable buying used.

 

[tom203]

Thanks for checking- turns out my spare shoe is the right one;
This motor design seems tough, willing to carry on. Probably a PO messed up how to use the tensioner correctly.