Oil Supply for Turbo ( Lecroy )

[jgordon]

Where are you getting your oil supply for your turbo. I ran mine off the oil supply block and have the gears ( Oil Pump ) but after some tear downs the cams and rockers looked like they were not getting quite enough oil. I have since got a Weldon Pump and am getting my chassis together but I was curious how you did yours...

GS1100 like yours...

 

[lecroy]

The old Rajay 300 turbochargers require 2 quarts / minute at 30 PSI.

I had looked into using an electric pump a few times, but never found anything that could meet the flow/pressure rates using the 20W50 Torco. I was talking with EMP about a new pump they were working on, but it was not released.

I would be interested in what Weldon part number you are using and the flow/pressure rates your getting with the oil your using.

I use the Mr. Turbo oil block. The top oiler also feeds from this block. I ran some tests on it measuring the dead head pressure and no load flow rates. When I say, no load, I am talking no load on engine, not on the pump. It does not meet the required pressure/flow rates of the turbo, even with the 750 gears.

You can see the oil block and feed lines...

I was talking to Wade about this and he thought that the flow rates would go up with engine load and that the Rajay would act as a pump. He was using clear return lines and would notice a big change in the flow rates. I ran a few more tests and found the flow rates did improve with load but I still did not meet the flow rates.

This said, I have not had too many problems. I lost one turbo when I first started using one. I would pull the clutch and shut down the engine at the end of the track. I lost this same turbo the summer before last, I think just due to age. I caught it early enough that no damage was done to the cases.

 

[jgordon]

I have the the Weldon 9200-A

http://www.weldonpumps.com/9200.html

 

[lecroy]

The Rajay uses an oil bearing and acts like a restriction to the pump. They show this pump at 30GPH with 90W heated to 160F. So I am sure they can flow some cold 50W at 2 quart / minute. Problem is that I think that this is measured free flowing, or no load on the pump.

I did a quick search on this pump...

"Will the 9200-A pump ?lift? ATF or motor oil?

The 9200-A will not lift fluids efficiently ? it will work best when the inlet is placed at or slightly below the fluid level and when the fluid is warm."

" can be used to return oil from a remote turbo sump back to the oilpan."

It sounds like driving the turbo could be a problem. Have you done any flow testing yet? If so, could you describe what your setup is? Thanks for any information!!

 

[marcovandevelde]

I run a more recent Garrett VNT20 turbo on my street GS1168. I take the turbofeed off of the fitting originally for the oiltemp gauge (at the oilpress switch). I've no external lines to the head but do have HD APE studs. I use stock Katana cams and rockers, and haven't found any damage to turbo nor cams after one summer season of abuse. Ofcourse I use GS750 gears.
Recently a buddy who used to race an EFE with GS750 straightcut gears (so lower clutch/ pumpspeed) gave me a modified std. GS1100 pump. Its pumpwheels/ rotors are 1mm wider and apparently are from a Kawi. Don't know which. The ''cup'' of the pump was deepened to accomodate the rotors. This gives a good increase in volume/ pressure. Haven't measured how much yet.

Lecroy, your setup looks awesome!

Marco.

 

[lecroy]

Any idea what flow / pressure rates the Garrett needs?

I would be VERY interested in hearing details on KawaSuzuki pump!!!!!!!

Lecroy, your setup looks awesome!

No, YOUR setup is AWESOME!!!!! You hand built yours which rates in my book much higher than someone buying parts and bolting things together like my setup. Your doing a great job with your bike!!!!!

 

[jgordon]

The Rajay uses an oil bearing and acts like a restriction to the pump. They show this pump at 30GPH with 90W heated to 160F. So I am sure they can flow some cold 50W at 2 quart / minute. Problem is that I think that this is measured free flowing, or no load on the pump.

I did a quick search on this pump...

"Will the 9200-A pump ?lift? ATF or motor oil?

The 9200-A will not lift fluids efficiently ? it will work best when the inlet is placed at or slightly below the fluid level and when the fluid is warm."

" can be used to return oil from a remote turbo sump back to the oilpan."

It sounds like driving the turbo could be a problem. Have you done any flow testing yet? If so, could you describe what your setup is? Thanks for any information!!

I'm setting up a seperate tank for the turbo oil and I'm mounting the pump lower than the tank so it will have a flooded suction. I haven't done any flow testing yet.....

 

[spdjunkie]

Lecroy, are you using that bike strictly for the track? If not, how's the Draw-trhough setup perform on the street? I think after my research I'm going to (eventually) do a blow-through system. From the sounds of it, there's just more benefit to blow-thru on the street but I have no experience with it yet. What do you think?

How's yours perform, marcovandevelde? How many pounds of boost are you running?

 

[lecroy]

Lecroy, are you using that bike strictly for the track? If not, how's the Draw-trhough setup perform on the street? I think after my research I'm going to (eventually) do a blow-through system. From the sounds of it, there's just more benefit to blow-thru on the street but I have no experience with it yet. What do you think?

Yes, this bike is for race use only. Currently runs about 22PSIG. I used to drive this bike on the street with 7PSIG.

Same basic setup. It ran well for the most part and I had a LOT of fun with it. I think there is a LOT of benifit to a blow system period. If I were to put one on a new bike bike, this is what I would do, hands down. My stuff is just old. Marco has a much better setup.

 

[marcovandevelde]

Thanks Lecroy, a compliment like that coming from you really means a lot to me!

According to specs the Garrett turbo needs 0.3gpm of oil @ 30 psi minimum at full power. I haven't measured flow but I'm sure the pressure is met at full revs, but certainly not at 3500rpm.

I can't give you details on the oilpump other than what I said, it's a Suzuki pump with deepened cup and 20mm wide rotors instead of the std. 19mm. I'll ask where it was made, I'm sure it was a local bikeshop who did it and investigate about the cost for you.

Apart from this story I personally think it's a bad idea to have a separate (electric) oilpump. Failure at some point is obvious besides the fact it uses a lot of power from your electric system. And if a turbo lasts years on its own engine-oilpump, why bother?

spd junkie,
Be aware I'm not a real turbo-expert and only run my bike on the streets. But I got a fine running machine now that's got more power than anyone really needs.
I'm running 12 psi at the moment. I've yet had only one dynorun (I'm a normal guy with a mortgage) and take it step by step. At the time it made 161 SAE HP at the wheel and was running so rich it refused to go over 7500 rpm. More important is the torque figure; 158 SAE Nm from 3750-7200rpm! This bad-running thang is already a busa-beater!
In the meantime I lowered the floatlevel and fitted smaller mains. It gives a lot more power now, I estimate it somewhere around 200-210 Hp and 200 Nm. I'm fitting a water/alcohol injection system right now (and a longer swingarm) to have a safety item when leaning out further and going to 15 psi. I'll dyno it again when finished.


Indeed, the blowthrough turbo is THE way to go these days. It's really simple if you use dynamic boost compensation on your std. carbs, meaning the floatbowls need to be connected to a ''ram-air'' tube aimed into the airstream of the turbo. You can stay at std. mains even, guaranteeing the smooth std. run off boost you always had.
Drawthroughs tend to run bad at idle and in the lower revrange. Not a problem on the wide-open stance of the track!

Force means: Reinforce. I take it you have a GS(x)1100? Then at least you need (for a streetbike):
-HD studs
-Gs750 pumpgears
-slotted camsprockets & base spacer
-copper head gasket
-lockup clutch
-backplate & HD springs for the clutchbasket
-Preferrably forged pistons in a little bigger bore.

For more info look at me webpage.
http://home.wanadoo.nl/marcovandevelde/turbo GSX.htm

Greetz, Marco.

 

[jgordon]

Apart from this story I personally think it's a bad idea to have a separate (electric) oilpump. Failure at some point is obvious besides the fact it uses a lot of power from your electric system. And if a turbo lasts years on its own engine-oilpump, why bother?

Greetz, Marco.

My bike is going to be riden on the street as well. With the wear that was showing I would prefer to have a seperate system for the turbo so that the bushing is not riding in the contaminated oil from clutch discs and metal particles. I'm not saying that this is the right way to do it but it's the way that I'm going to try it. I am putting a pressure switch in as well to monitor the oil pressure from the pump.

 

[lecroy]

"With the wear that was showing ..."

Wear? In what parts?

I will say I change the oil every 20 runs or so.

 

[jgordon]

Slight grooving on the cam journals mainly. Looked like it was a little light on top end oiling. I had put 500 miles or so and did a tear down to se how things were looking and thats what I found. I realized that there was no good way to insure that it was being fed to the top end as well as the turbo properly. If you know of some way to make sure that it is being split properly, let me know. You would have to put a valve or an orifice in it to change the pressures to one side or the other.


Just a thought...........

 

[lecroy]

The only time I see this was with some very high lift cams, without a turbo.

I am running very mild lift, not much over stock, with stock duration. I may just go back to stock cams when I get around to putting the 1150 head on. Anyway, I have never had this problem. I have the same cams now that I had in the 80s. I check for wear from time to time, but never saw enough to replace them or the rockers yet.

Good luck with this and post some flow results when you have them.

 

[spdjunkie]

Hey Marco, didn't I just see your bike features as "Bike of the Month" on oldskoolsuzuki.info ? Congrats on BotM!!! Very cool!

 

[massakins]

Long ago Vance&Hines used to sell an oil restrictor for the GS1000 2v motor. After Byron and Terry sold this company there was no one left that recalled this part so I made one myself. Piece is a reducer bushing that fits in the oil galley to the transmission bearings beneath the oil sensor cap. I had it machined close to the same OD, had a groove cut in it to hold an o-ring to seal it and then a .080" hole drilled in the center.

I never did any before and after checks on pressure, flow, etc. but the system now has less going to the transmission and more going to the top end, crank and turbo.

Have used it on my dragbike for 6 seasons with no oil related failures and no turbo failures.

Anyone else done such a thing? Post a note.

 

[jgordon]

Long ago Vance&Hines used to sell an oil restrictor for the GS1000 2v motor. After Byron and Terry sold this company there was no one left that recalled this part so I made one myself. Piece is a reducer bushing that fits in the oil galley to the transmission bearings beneath the oil sensor cap. I had it machined close to the same OD, had a groove cut in it to hold an o-ring to seal it and then a .080" hole drilled in the center.

I never did any before and after checks on pressure, flow, etc. but the system now has less going to the transmission and more going to the top end, crank and turbo.

Have used it on my dragbike for 6 seasons with no oil related failures and no turbo failures.

Anyone else done such a thing? Post a note.

I would be interested in one of those. If it's proven on your bike I would love to not have to put the external pump on mine.

What do you think there Lecroy?

 

[lecroy]

I would be guessing.

 

[marcovandevelde]

Hi spdjunkie,
Indeed it got bike of the month on oldskoolsuzuki.info. Two months ago it got an article in one of NL's biggest mags too. I'm not worthy etc...

In the meantime it's getting a make-over, generally making it look better with wider rear wheel, longer swingarm, EK DRZ chrome chain, K&N chrome inlet filter, better/ neater 'dis 'an that and later a new paintjob in the same colors.

To be continued...

Marco.