Painting my 450

[rustybronco]

Pete, you'll go pro in no time!!!

And I should clean the nozzles on the guns between coats? And I should only mix enough for the coat I'm doing and mix a fresh batch for the next coat right?

No, clean the gun when you are finished with each material used. not needed between coats unless you wait so long between coats that the paint starts to harden.

mix enough paint for what you intend on using for the complete stage, not just for each coat. mix enough base for 2~3 coats... enough clear for 2 coats... ect.

 

[Guest]

Pete, you'll go pro in no time!!!

No, clean the gun when you are finished with each material used. not needed between coats unless you wait so long between coats that the paint starts to harden.

mix enough paint for what you intend on using for the complete stage, not just for each coat. mix enough base for 2~3 coats... enough clear for 2 coats... ect.

Haha I like your confidence Dale! Maybe some will rub off on me once I've started

Cool, I thought it was a big task to be cleaning between coats... flash off time is 10 to 15 minutes so that was gonna be a huge rush to give it a quick clean, mix a new batch, and get ready to spray in that time frame...

I really am thinking I'm getting my head around this finally, or at least I hope I am!

 

[rustybronco]

So for masking, I initially thought masking tape and newspaper...

I think butcher paper or a plastic wrap like you get from the cleaners would be just fine for what little bit you need.

 

[laverda1200]

Actually, so once the prep. work is done, does this mean I can actually do the painting all in one day?

By that I mean the base colour goes on, 2 to 3 coats, 10 - 15 min's between coats for flash off, wait 45 min's 'til dry then mask of for the stripes, repeat for stripes, wait another 45 min's then I can start the clear coat?

Is that right or should I leave the colour over night before doing the clear?

Going by those times, in theory I could be done in about 5 hours or so...

Hi Pete

if you can, best to keep going with appropriate flash off time between coats. There are various chemical reactions going on, if you leave the colour coat overnight for example you should do a light sand to scuff it up a bit before going on to clear. If you just wait the flash off time, no need to sand. And yes, once you are ready to spray, set aside enough continuos time to be able to keep going to the end if possible.

pretty much most colour paint is going to be "reduced" at whatever ratio. Reduce the entire btach at once for consistency. Reduced is not catalyzed, no chemical reaction as such, just a dilution, and stays good in the can for months..... Clear coat on the other hand is catalyzed, when you add in the activator you start the chemical reaction, which ultimately causes the stuff to turn hard, so don't catalyze a huge amount of clear at once, only do enough for at most a couple of coats, easy to catalyze more as needed.

it is important to let the final clear coat sit for at least two days before you start on wet sanding, it needs time to at least partialy set up but will still be "soft" enough to easily work after say 48 hours or so.

if you haven't sprayed with your HVLP gun before, practice setting up the spray pattern and material volume, get the air pressure set up right, spray some test panels. The gun manufacturer will tell you how far away or how close to be from the material, the newer HVLP guns are sprayed close, say 8 inches or so. Always start your spray run off the piece and continue all the way through to off the other side wherever possible. Don't be drawn into laying the material on too heavily, several thinner coats are always better, learn to quit while you are still ahead......

perfect surface prep and good adhesion are the basics, then the final wet sand and polish are the icing on the cake, the actual spraying is the least of the work. You can do better than many pro painters working from your own garage if you prep properly, and wet sand and polish at the end, your aspirations for something to look good from a meter away are far too low, you should see some of the paint jobs I have done from my home as a hobby, over this past summer I did a 1979 Laverda 1200 Mirage in orchid green, with prismatic flake in the first two coats of clear, then gold flake in the next two coats of clear, then 4 more coats of clear clear, then wet sanded and polished, the sucker is absolutely glass smooth and mirror shiny. I also did a 70's Kawasaki in fire engine red with silver flake, same result, better than most pro shops, and I am just a home hobbyist.

Paul

 

[Guest]

I think butcher paper or a plastic wrap like you get from the cleaners would be just fine for what little bit you need.

Aaaah butchers paper! Good call, I'll try to track some down and yeah I only need a couple of metres really. That plastic would be good too although I think paper might be easier to work with. I figured 400M of masking paper was somewhat over kill

Hi Pete

if you can, best to keep going with appropriate flash off time between coats. There are various chemical reactions going on, if you leave the colour coat overnight for example you should do a light sand to scuff it up a bit before going on to clear. If you just wait the flash off time, no need to sand. And yes, once you are ready to spray, set aside enough continuos time to be able to keep going to the end if possible.

it is important to let the final clear coat sit for at least two days before you start on wet sanding, it needs time to at least partialy set up but will still be "soft" enough to easily work after say 48 hours or so.

if you haven't sprayed with your HVLP gun before, practice setting up the spray pattern and material volume, get the air pressure set up right, spray some test panels. The gun manufacturer will tell you how far away or how close to be from the material, the newer HVLP guns are sprayed close, say 8 inches or so. Always start your spray run off the piece and continue all the way through to off the other side wherever possible. Don't be drawn into laying the material on too heavily, several thinner coats are always better, learn to quit while you are still ahead......

perfect surface prep and good adhesion are the basics, then the final wet sand and polish are the icing on the cake, the actual spraying is the least of the work. You can do better than many pro painters working from your own garage if you prep properly, and wet sand and polish at the end, your aspirations for something to look good from a meter away are far too low, you should see some of the paint jobs I have done from my home as a hobby, over this past summer I did a 1979 Laverda 1200 Mirage in orchid green, with prismatic flake in the first two coats of clear, then gold flake in the next two coats of clear, then 4 more coats of clear clear, then wet sanded and polished, the sucker is absolutely glass smooth and mirror shiny. I also did a 70's Kawasaki in fire engine red with silver flake, same result, better than most pro shops, and I am just a home hobbyist.

Paul

Hmmmm see that makes sense too...

There are tips in there as to distance from surface etc. so I'll be reading more thoroughly yet.

Larry says he waits overnight before doing the next colour specifically to stop tape marks from the masking. The tape off time is 20 - 45 min's with this paint. So you think that's safe enough without leaving tape marks? As it is there'll only be the two stripes being masked for, not anything complicated.

Then after the white, I'm assuming the tape time is also what I'd be best leaving before removing the tape and clearing. Make sense?

My whole issue at the moment is a complete lack of self-confidence in doing a good job, but I will certainly be putting the prep. and follow up effort in to get the best results I can.

Those paint jobs sound great! If I can achieve something like that then I will be even more than stoked

Thanks again for these replies guys, I'm starting to get a grip in my head which is helping no end

 

[Flyboy]

Hey Paul

I did a 1979 Laverda 1200 Mirage in orchid green, with prismatic flake in the first two coats of clear, then gold flake in the next two coats of clear, then 4 more coats of clear clear, then wet sanded and polished, the sucker is absolutely glass smooth and mirror shiny. I also did a 70's Kawasaki in fire engine red with silver flake, same result, better than most pro shops, and I am just a home hobbyist.

 

[Guest]

Haha good call Stan!

I just had another thought on masking... what about the glossy junk mail they stick in the paper? It's that real glossy paper like magazine pages, so if i was to put three or four layers of that down I can't see any paint penetrating that and I would think it would be just as good as butcher's paper in that regard.

If that will work, I already should have plenty in the garage with my newspaper stash

Oh, and I think I need to work out some sort of stand for the paint gun between coats too, don't fancy standing around holding it like a moron... actually I should say I don't need to do that to look like a moron, do that all by myself... haha

 

[rustybronco]

if you can, best to keep going with appropriate flash off time between coats. There are various chemical reactions going on, if you leave the colour coat overnight for example you should do a light sand to scuff it up a bit before going on to clear. If you just wait the flash off time, no need to sand. And yes, once you are ready to spray, set aside enough continuos time to be able to keep going to the end if possible.

Pete, you can never go wrong with the manufacturers recommendations. if they say you can re-coat or top coat up to 24 hours, then you have at least 24 hours to tack it off and re-coat. read the Technical Data Sheets.

Don't be drawn into laying the material on too heavily, several thinner coats are always better, learn to quit while you are still ahead......

excellent advice!

I just had another thought on masking... what about the glossy junk mail they stick in the paper? It's that real glossy paper like magazine pages, so if i was to put three or four layers of that down I can't see any paint penetrating that and I would think it would be just as good as butcher's paper in that regard.

as long as it's dust free and the solvents don't cause the ink to run, I don't see an issue with it. I've painted many things using newsprint as masking paper in the past. just watch out for the dust...

Oh, and I think I need to work out some sort of stand for the paint gun between coats too, don't fancy standing around holding it like a moron...

I use a nail driven into the end of my saw horse to hang my gun when not in use. if the distance between gun body and the trigger is wide enough I even 'hang' it on the back of a chair from time to time.

 

[rustybronco]

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt26/starpoint73/GS450/The Paint Job/IMG_3442.jpg

are you sure this is a fuel resistant paint? why do I get the feeling it's acrylic lacquer not a ??-urethane? possibly because it says dura-lac?

BeroBase 500 http://debeer.com.au/products/basecoats/berobase

500 Series is a basecoat that must be finished with a 2-pack clear coat

 

[apopleptic]

I'm pretty excited to see how you turn out here Pete.
Also, I forget where, but I read you can use aluminum foil to mask off large areas.
I've done a little painting and never once had it make the ink run on the foil, or had it soak through!

 

[MisterCinders]

Here is one tip I read, but have not tried, for masking off areas.

Once you have laid out the tape to mask the edges, hit the area to be painted with light coat of the color under the masked area. So for your project, assume that you are painting the white stripes first and then masking off the white stripes to lay down the red.

Once you have papered and taped the white stripes, spray a light coat of white paint over the taped edge. Let it dry a bit, then proceed to paint the red.

The initial coat of white is supposed to help seal off the masking tape, to reduce or eliminate bleed through. Basically, the white bleeds through and prevents the red from doing do.

Good luck.

 

[SVSooke]

Here is one tip I read, but have not tried, for masking off areas.

Once you have laid out the tape to mask the edges, hit the area to be painted with light coat of the color under the masked area. So for your project, assume that you are painting the white stripes first and then masking off the white stripes to lay down the red.

Once you have papered and taped the white stripes, spray a light coat of white paint over the taped edge. Let it dry a bit, then proceed to paint the red.

The initial coat of white is supposed to help seal off the masking tape, to reduce or eliminate bleed through. Basically, the white bleeds through and prevents the red from doing do.

Good luck.

Yeah this trick also works with clear.A light coat clear over the masking stopped the bleeding of the top colour.I was using rattle can lacquer so a slightly different process.Did it with my 81GS650E.Sadly I have no pics of that bikeThe light silver with a real dark blue was so nice.

 

[laverda1200]

Hi Guys

this site isn't realy photo friendly to attachments, I guess I'll have to set up a photbucket account or simialr, but I will post of afew photos of my most recent projetcs, promise.

Hi Pete

I guess I wasn't really following the masking tape/material questions all that well. As I understand your posts you want to paint mainly red, with a couple of white stripes? Forget the butchers paper, aluminum foil, masking materials, etc

the very easiest way to do that, and get fabulous results, is to simply paint all the parts white, let the white colour coat set up, use pro painters tape to lay down your stripes by taping off exactly where you want your stripes to be, then spray the entire part red however many coats, then while the red colour coats are still wet, peel the pro painters tape off at a bit of an angle exposing the white stripes, then clear everything.

taking the pro painters tape off while the overcoat is still wet prevents any flaking or cracking of the paint, leaves a really clean crisp stripe line, and then the clear overcoat levels everything perfectly smooth.

your local autobody paint supplier should set you up with the pro painters tape, some solid advice on the materials you are working with, and some proper cone paint filters as well as an inexpensive paint gun stand typicaly made of wire. Don't forget the "gun wash" to clean out the gun between white/red/clear.

Paul

 

[Guest]

Woah lots of replies... this is good thanks guys

Pete, you can never go wrong with the manufacturers recommendations. if they say you can re-coat or top coat up to 24 hours, then you have at least 24 hours to tack it off and re-coat. read the Technical Data Sheets.

Hmmm I can't see a re-coat or top coat time in the tech. data? I see flash off time, tape time, and drying time but no re-coat time. I may have to call them on Monday to check.

as long as it's dust free and the solvents don't cause the ink to run, I don't see an issue with it. I've painted many things using newsprint as masking paper in the past. just watch out for the dust...

Cool, there's no dust on the glossy pages but I can put enough layers down that if the ink runs on the top layer or two that's as far as it will go.

I use a nail driven into the end of my saw horse to hang my gun when not in use. if the distance between gun body and the trigger is wide enough I even 'hang' it on the back of a chair from time to time.

Makes perfect sense! No special bracket required

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt26/starpoint73/GS450/The Paint Job/IMG_3442.jpg

are you sure this is a fuel resistant paint? why do I get the feeling it's acrylic lacquer not a ??-urethane? possibly because it says dura-lac?

BeroBase 500 http://debeer.com.au/products/basecoats/berobase

Ok, it's acrylic clear, I thought I'd mentioned that in the first post but maybe I missed it.

They don't "recommend" using it over the 2K base, but the cost of the 2K clear was getting prohibitive to the budget and they said the acrylic will definitely work on the base if I let the base sit over night. That means I *really* need to check the re-coat time...

As far as fuel resistant, I asked the question and they said as good as any other clear, so I assume yes to that one...

I really hope it's not wrong because I won't get a chance to swap it before my week off... ray:

Is it really bad or does it mean I just need to take care and keep fuel off as much as possible (which I tend to do regardless)?

Once this painting is done, my guess is at least another month before any fuel will be in the tank given the way this project's been going. If I do make it by the end of the year, I suspect it'll be being registered late November or early December.

I'm pretty excited to see how you turn out here Pete.
Also, I forget where, but I read you can use aluminum foil to mask off large areas.
I've done a little painting and never once had it make the ink run on the foil, or had it soak through!

Cheers mate! I really want it to work out ray:

That's not a bad idea actually! Will keep that in mind as I continue through these replies...

Here is one tip I read, but have not tried, for masking off areas.

Once you have laid out the tape to mask the edges, hit the area to be painted with light coat of the color under the masked area. So for your project, assume that you are painting the white stripes first and then masking off the white stripes to lay down the red.

Once you have papered and taped the white stripes, spray a light coat of white paint over the taped edge. Let it dry a bit, then proceed to paint the red.

The initial coat of white is supposed to help seal off the masking tape, to reduce or eliminate bleed through. Basically, the white bleeds through and prevents the red from doing do.

Good luck.

Interesting tip! That does make some sense too actually. Let any potential pores in the masking material be filled with the bottom colour so the top colour hopefully has to just sit on top without bleeding through.

I am doing white over red though... I know it will probably mean another coat will be required, but it would mean a hell of a lot of extra white would be required for it.

Also, I see guys like Larry do white as the last coat, so there should be no dramas in my mind coverage wise as long as I remember the red will probably show through the first coat or two and don't overdo the amount of paint.

Yeah this trick also works with clear.A light coat clear over the masking stopped the bleeding of the top colour.I was using rattle can lacquer so a slightly different process.Did it with my 81GS650E.Sadly I have no pics of that bikeThe light silver with a real dark blue was so nice.

Thanks for the confirmation Greg.

I won't need to do any masking for the clear but I'll use the tip for the white on red.

So just to clarify on this...

Do the 2 to 3 coats of red waiting for flash off time between, wait for the tape off time then tape, do one more quick red one along the masking tape, wait flash off time, then go to it with the white. I'll just have to make the gun cleaning wait until after tape off time, then clean before doing the white.

Hi Guys

this site isn't realy photo friendly to attachments, I guess I'll have to set up a photbucket account or simialr, but I will post of afew photos of my most recent projetcs, promise.

Hi Pete

I guess I wasn't really following the masking tape/material questions all that well. As I understand your posts you want to paint mainly red, with a couple of white stripes? Forget the butchers paper, aluminum foil, masking materials, etc

the very easiest way to do that, and get fabulous results, is to simply paint all the parts white, let the white colour coat set up, use pro painters tape to lay down your stripes by taping off exactly where you want your stripes to be, then spray the entire part red however many coats, then while the red colour coats are still wet, peel the pro painters tape off at a bit of an angle exposing the white stripes, then clear everything.

taking the pro painters tape off while the overcoat is still wet prevents any flaking or cracking of the paint, leaves a really clean crisp stripe line, and then the clear overcoat levels everything perfectly smooth.

your local autobody paint supplier should set you up with the pro painters tape, some solid advice on the materials you are working with, and some proper cone paint filters as well as an inexpensive paint gun stand typicaly made of wire. Don't forget the "gun wash" to clean out the gun between white/red/clear.

Paul

Yeah attachments are a bit limited, Photobucket or similar definitely makes it easier And yes we'd like to drool over you paintwork... well pictures of it anyway

As I said above, I'll need to do white over red... I do agree in thoery with what you and MisterCinders said about red over white (makes sense light over dark is easier), but that was going to blow costs out more and I did know enough that white over red isn't a show stopper, I just need to be careful how I do it.

Thanks for the clarification on when to take the masking off too, that helps a lot. I think I'll have to get some different masking tape too, this stuff is just universal and very cheap, it's not special pro tape or anything like that.

I think there's a big difference in auto paint stores between here and the US.

Here, they're really setup to supply auto body painters who know what they're doing, not the general public who are clueless. I have a feeling the one I went to may not be the ideal one for the public here either, and I think there's a better one that's just a bit far away from me to be practical.

I successfully got all my POR 15 stuff from these guys, but I didn't need any advice on that stuff, I knew what I was doing.

 

[Flyboy]

Pete, what you want to do, is see if you can get your hands on some fine line tape, 3M make it, as do a few others, it comes in 3mm and 6mm width, and is like a plastic type tape, leaves the edges razor sharp.
Lay the edges with that, then the cheap masking tape inside of that.
If you look at my thread where I painted my front wheel, it is the thin green stuff between the cheap and nasty masking tape.
As I said, I know nothing of this dark art of stunning paint work, but just a thought, if you can't get the fine line tape, what would stop you from using something like electrical insulation tape to tape the edges, it is also, not porous and should leave a clean line, even your garden variety selotape or packaging tape, there are so many tapes that are plastic based and non porous that can be used just for the edging.....I don't know, maybe the gurus can comment and educate me why not, if not.

 

[apopleptic]

you know, I washed my front fender really well the other day before I got ready to strip the paint and the white stripes in the stock paint job were actually not painted on. All the pin striping I see seems to be laid on plastic tape of some sort. This actually has been what I've seen on most cars that have thinner pinstripes too.

 

[Flyboy]

Yes, indeed, Pete's stripes are a little wide, I think, but in theory, if he could find that width white tape, he could apply it, as opposed to painting, then clear over the whole bang shoot, once sanded smooth and polished, you would never tell the difference, many vehicles are done that way, the graphics are decal sets, cleared over, a lot less fuss and no worries about lines bleeding.

 

[Guest]

Getting some good masking tape shouldn't be an issue. If all else fails I can get some off eBay if I can't get back to the refinishers.

Having said that, my house mate works around the corner from them, so while it would be unfair to ask him to do anything like talk to them about the clear coat, he would be more than happy to duck in and grab some masking tape for me. He's offered to do that sort of stuff lots of times and he usually picks up the POR 15 stuff from there for me.

My main concern right now is the clear.

Will the acrylic be ok? Is it no good? Will it go on ok but get destroyed with a drop or two of fuel?

Either way, I'm going to call them back on Monday to find the re-coat time of the 2K colour and see how long they say I should leave it before applying the acrylic clear. I'm actually going to call their other store like they told me as the more technical guys work there. Unfortunately it's way the other side of town so was impractical for me to get to that store when buying the paint. I also didn't realise that's where the technical staff are...

Also, as a little side note, I'm going to check how much POR 15 Blackcote I have left as I should probably be doing the tail light bracket and exhaust bracket with that to match the frame etc.

 

[Guest]

And just to add insult to injury I can't find tech. data anywhere for that Dura-Lac stuff! But I did at least run across a thread on a local car forum where the reports of using it over the top of 2K base are promising, but they don't say anything about times...

I just knew I should've started this thread before asking advice from local paint shops, just had a feeling it was gonna go bad... go with your instincts Pete!

 

[Guest]

And I completely neglected to reply in regards to the striping comments

I'm not 100% sure on stripe width or placement yet, I plan on doing some mock ups with the cheapo masking tape this week to work it out. It did look pretty good with two just the width of the tape though which is 24mm.

Over the years, I have discovered I'm extremely decal challenged, and I still have issues getting rego stickers on car windows without leaving bubbles.

I think it will be much safer for me to mask and paint the stripes.

My intention is to make up some templates out of cardboard that I can hold on the front, middle, and rear of the tank and tail piece to make sure I lay the masking out centred, straight, and even. By doing that in advance it means I won't be rushing on the day.