Points/condenser replaced..now no spark

[Guest]

Ok, here's my story. My sons and I have been working on getting a 1978 GS550E up and running again. We actually had her running but something was wrong. Hard to start, we could keep her idling though but had a loss of power on throttling up on our test rides down the street. We checked for spark at the plugs (they were all sparking on an earlier test) and number 2 and 3 were not sparking. Swapped the coils with the firing 1 and 4 coil and they weren't sparking either so we narrowed it down to the 2 and 3 coil. Put in another coil we had and still no spark at 2 and 3 coil.

So, ordered replacement points and condensers, the correct ones. It was obvious that the condenser for the 2 and 3 coil was bad..it was cracked open and looked pretty rough. Installed the new condensers and points, set the points according to the manual and now I have no spark from any plug, including the previously sparking 1 and 4 plugs??

My guess is that the timing is off. I'm going to get to that some time today (after I help my son install some motor mounts on his Jeep..fun!) but was wondering if anybody else has any experience with this and if I'm missing something here? Thanks..

 

[Flyboy]

The timing being out will not stop the ignition system from delivering spark, it will just deliver it at the wrong time.
I would check that when you installed the new points and condensors that you havn't accidently got a pigtail that carries the juice to the points touching the base plate somewhere and shorting straight to ground, It is easy to do and overlook.
Make sure the wires that go to the points, as well as the wires from the condensors to the points are well clear of touching anything else that could take it straight to ground.
Also check where it comes through the little groove in the casing, that it has not chaffed through and is going to grond there, then work your way up from there, sounds like a bum wire or iffy connection somewhere, I doubt it is a major thing.
These electrical systems are 30 years old, go through the whole wiring harness, clean all the connectors properly and resecure.
Make sure you start with a full battery in good condition.
Let us know how it goes.

 

[Guest]

Thanks Flyboy, I will follow your advise. I thought maybe I had reconnected the wires to the points all wrong so I've been fiddling with them.

Right now I have the wires from the condensers attaching at the top of the screws on the points between a metal washer and an insulating washer and the wires coming through the casing attached to the bottom of the screws on the points between a washer and the insulating washer. Hopefully that makes sense to all of you who have done this before.

Battery is fully charged and when I pulled the bullet connector that the white wire that goes through the casing connects to farther up the frame, I got a spark so that wire is getting juice.

I will double check the wires again but I must have done something wrong because I know I had spark from plugs 1 and 4 before I replaced the condensers and points and now none of them have any spark.

Also, when I connect a continuity light to try and adjust the backplate for the timing, the light won't go out no matter how far I turn the plate..??..

Any help would be appreciated..

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

DON'T start screwing with the timing !!!! If the light won't come on something is definitely wrong with the way you hooked up the wires to the points. Make sure you didn't blow the ign fuse
Should have the screw, point arm spring, fiber washer, point body, fiber washer, Hookup wire small metal washer, lock washer and nut...

 

[Flyboy]

This may not look exactly like yours, but it will give you the idea, see how the wire to the points (yellow) is connected between the head of the screw and the first fibre washer, to insulate it from the base plate.
The pigtail from the condensor goes right in the same place with it.

 

[Guest]

Here's a pic of my predicament

Here's a pic of my predicament

Hopefully this will work. In my pic, if it shows up, I have the white wire coming through the casing on the bottom left set of points and the black wire from a condenser on top.

On the right points, I have the black wire from the wire coming through the casing on the bottom of the points and the white wire from the condenser attaching at the top of the right set of points.

Am I totally screwed up on this?

 

[Flyboy]

It is a hard to see in your pic, but from what I can see, it looks right, a few things; that base plate looks way out, the adjusting screws should be in or around the middle of the slots, but as I said, that is timing nd will not affect spark...for now.
It does not matter which condensor goes to which set of points, the condensor is purely a capacitor, they are identical, it is unlikely but not impossible that you have a bad condensor straight out the box, try switching the condensor leads around on the points.
Do you have a wiring diagram, what is important is that the two wires coming in from the harness go to the correct points, these are specific to the two coils, if you have them swiched around, your coils will be firing 180 degrees out of phase.
I know it sounds lame, but trust me, recheck the point gaps, it will not be the first time points have been set and on tightening up the screw that holds them, they move and the gap changes.
turn the motor by hand with a spanner and physically look to see that the points open and close all the way, seen this before many times.
Better yet, turn the ignition on and turn the motor over by hand, as the points open, you should se them spark between the contacts......MAKE SURE THE SPARKPLUGS ARE REMOVED FROM THE ENGINE so it cannot fire, also makes it easier to turn over.
Check all your fuses, you may have a duff fuse.
Check that you have voltage at the point where the wire from the harness connects to the points, with the points closed.
Let us know, and we will take it from there.

 

[Guest]

Hey Flyboy...thanks for all your help.

First off, to explain the backplate, it was in that position when I first opened everything up and decided to put it back to that position when I tried a few times to crank it and check for spark at the plugs.

As to the condensers, I have put the wires coming from the harness to the same points that they were on when I opened her up. I then matched a black wire from a condenser to a white wire from the harness and a black wire from a condenser to a white wire from the harness. Maybe that is wrong? Maybe I should match up the white wires and the black wires? Or does it matter?

I did replace the fuse because it looked a little dodgy...but it didn't change the results on trying to find spark at the plugs.

I have rechecked the gaps on the points about 5 times now and am pretty certain they're right.

I am going to try turning the ignition on and checking for spark at the points when I turn it by hand like you suggest and I am going to recheck the wiring diagram. Also going to check for volts at the points ...but not tonight. It's after 10 PM here (not sure what time it is there in South Africa) and I'm about out of gas...I'll go at it again tomorrow. Thanks so much for your help..it means a lot. I'll update my results tomorrow.

 

[Flyboy]

Ok, good one, as I said, it does not matter which condensor goes to which set of points.
It is 4am here, so I am going to crawl back into bed for another hour or two sleep, am downloading the manual for the 550 now, when I have it, I will try and walk you through a logical trouble shooting procedure, you will have it up and running in no time.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

The white wire from the left set of points marked 1-4 goes to the LH coil that fires cylinders 1 & 4. The black wire from the right set of points marked 2-3 goes to the RH coil that fires cylinders 2 & 3. Trace these wires out and make sure they are correct.

Make sure the points are adjusted to .014" at the points widest opening. And the widest opening needs to be determined by looking at the cam as it turns and determining the highest point on the cam and being sure the heel of the points are on this point of the cam when adjusting for the .014". Once the points are adjusted you then need to make sure the points are actually closing on the low part of the cam. If they do not close then they cannot fire the spark plug via the relevant coil.

The way I test for power at the points is to turn the motor via the large hex nut on the end of the points cam and ensure the points that I want to test are closed. Turn the ign ON and then separate the points with the tip of a screwdriver and you will see the points spark if everything is working as it should. Then proceed to test the other pair of points when you have turned the motor over so that set of points are closed. If there is no spark at the points then the two reasons would be that no 12v is getting to the points or the points are grounded in some way and the power is being drained to earth.

Hope this helps.

 

[Guest]

Thanks Suzuki Don! I do have the white and black wires connected correctly as you say..white wire to 1&4 coil and black wire to 2&3 coil set of points. But I currently have the black condenser wire to the white wire(1&4) and the white condenser wire to the black wire(2&3)..is this correct or can I go white to white and black to black? By connecting the same color wires to each other it makes it easier as the condenser wires come that way..the white one is on the left condenser and the black wire is on the right condenser.

Also, I did your screw driver check on the points and when I separated them..no spark!! On either set! So I will be chasing down the wiring to try and find where my issue is. Any obvious places to look first? I know the main fuse is good, I just put a new on in.

Thanks for your help. I have seen several posts from you throughout this site and I want to personally thank you for all your knowledge and help you've given so many people. Some times we forget to thank those who deserve the recognition.

 

[Flyboy]

Trace the black wire and the white wire up to the coils, the black wire to the right hand coil and the white wire to the left hand coil.
Check for continuity all the way from the coil to the points, for any breaks, also look for any shorting to frame, especially under the tank.
If they check out fine, then trace the orange and white wire from the coils to the kill switch, also look for shorting somewhere, especially around the steering head area, and check that there are no breaks.

 

[Guest]

Good morning Flyboy. Made some progress today. I went by what SqDancerLynn said about the order of the insulating washers, washers, nuts, etc on the points and put them together that way and lo and behold! Spark!...BUT..only on coil 1&4 and none on coil 2&3...right where all this started.

So again, we switched out coils to an extra coil we have..no spark...switched wires with the known working coil of 1&4 and no spark...sooooo. Gonna start chasing the wiring and start with the ignition wires heading into the headlight bucket and see what I can find and go from there. Thanks for the help and will post what I find or...I'll be posting some more frustration. But she'll be awesome once we get this baby running again.

 

[Guest]

Okay everybody ..here's where I'm at. I'm going to reference an earlier post below:
This was posted in April 2010:


hook up a voltmeter, one lead to the wire junction on a set of points, the other lead to ground. turn the key on and check the voltage while turning the crankshaft over by hand. the voltmeter should read near battery voltage when the points are open and near 0 volts when closed.

if the voltage never gets near zero, then you have either a maladjusted set of points, an improper point ground, contaminated points, or excessive pitting.

if the voltage stays near zero then you have either points that are not opening, are shorted to ground, or you have a condenser that is shorted. disconnect the condenser and re-check again.

if you have a bright white spark on a set of points, either it has a grossly pitted set of points, or a bad condenser.

Okay, what I have is the situation where the 1&4 points are working correctly. All the wiring going to the both points test ok, they're both getting power. So at the points going to the 2&3 coil I get a read out that stays near battery level on the voltmeter when I turn the motor by hand and never goes to zero or near zero when the points are closed. This is bad right? Also, when I tried Flyboy's test of opening the closed points with a screw driver, I get all kinds of sparking everywhere. This is bad too right?

I just put in all new points and condensers so I'm wondering if, as in the earlier post above, there is some kind of ground I'm missing somewhere, maybe behind the breaker plate? Or did I get a bad set of new condensers?

Thanks

 

[Flyboy]

You may have a bad condensor, have you tried switching the leads and trying the known good one on that side?

 

[Guest]

I guess you mean swapping the condenser leads and see if I get the same problems on the 1&4 coil? I should probably try that then...I have switched the coils to confirm that the 2&3 side of the points were bad. I'll let you know what I find by switching them.

By the way, I saw your GS1000 rebuild post. If I can help, let me know.

 

[Guest]

Okay...I switched the condenser leads and got the same results!...spark on 1&4 and no spark on 2&3..? Perhaps I have gotten 2 bad coils...the original coil and one I had laying around.
But that can't be because I switched coils earlier and got the same results..I guess I'm going to have to continue to chase the wiring, maybe something is broken or crimped where I can't see it easily.

 

[Guest]

I feel like I'm missing a ground wire somewhere in the points/condenser/breaker plate area? The white wire and black wire going through the casing to the points both have power so is there some kind of grounding wire behind the breaker plate?

Thanks in advance...I need to take a break and my neighbor invited me over to his pool. I guess I'll have to meditate on this for a while in the water and hope for some help from the experts/experienced. Will check back in a little while.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

OK Super, WIWT (wish I was there) in person and we would sort this out. You've been given a lot of good advice from Flyboy especially and the normal, everyday issues seem to have been covered. So now it gets down to some serious trouble shooting.

You say there is power (12v) to both the white and black wires. Yes. And you say that there is only sparks at the 1-4 set of points when separated. Yes.

This is how I would approach it. Remove the white and black wires from their respective set of points. Using a multi meter with the ign ON test each lead (white then black) to earth and you should see whatever the battery voltage is, roughly 12v, but could be lower (maybe 11.2v, etc) if the ign has been ON for some length of time doing testing. One lead of multimeter is clipped to a good earth (cylinder fins, crankcase, etc) then other lead goes to the white or black points wire.

Get back to us with the results.

If you have 12v (or whatever battery voltage is) on both points wires and that voltage is the same (both wires need to have equal voltage) then attach each wire in turn to the 1-4 set of points with a condenser wire. Make sure this set of points is closed. Turn ign ON and separate this set of points (1-4) and there should be a spark between the point contacts as they separate. If you see a spark with each lead (white and black) attached in turn then that proves two things. That the set of points is installed properly and working as they should. And secondly that both sets of wiring from the points back to the respective coils is intact and working as they should.

If these tests result in the above senario then there is a problem with the 2-3 set of points and probably the way they have been installed. There are no earth or ground wires on any of the points or backing plates. The points earth to the backing plate through direct contact and the backing plate earths to the crankcase housing which in turn earths to the battery via the negative lead.

Remove the 2-3 set of points and make sure all the fibre or plastic washers are in correct orientation. The 12v coming to the points must be insulated from the baseplate when the points are open, when the points close the 12v is allowed to go to earth. So make sure the 12v does not have a path to earth when the points are open. Check against the other set of points for clarity.

Also make sure the 2-3 points are actually closing when on the low part of the cam, this can be done using the multimeter set on the ohms scale. Although me being an old timer I insert a cigarette paper (no I'm not a smoker) between the points and rotate the engine and make sure as the points close they clamp the cigarette paper good and tight. This is how we used to do the ign timing in the "good old days" before we had multimeters, you would put the cigarette paper between the points and rotate the engine and you would pull lightly on the cigarette paper and as the points just started to open they would release the cigarette paper and it would pull away slightly letiing you know the points were just starting to open. Anyway I've been side tracked. Sorry!!!!!

Get back to us with results.

P.S. If you put the white or black wire from the coils on the wrong side of the insulating washer then that can run the 12v straight to earth.

 

[chuck hahn]

The black hot wire from the 1/4 coil comes down and goes to the points on the 1/4 timing plate and a condenser is hooked to that as well. the same set up for the 2/3 coil. Be sure that both the blcak wire and the condenser spades are connected on the NUT SIDE of the fiber disc insulator. I saw the ;pic of the wires on the head side too...really makes no difference as long as they are on the outer sides of the insulators. As for wire color...mine are black on the 1000s ( which i recently done ) Guess you need to identify which is the hot wire that corresopnds with which coil.