Project 'Zero'

[witttom]

I started this project on October 23rd, or thereabouts. I've been keeping somewhat of a log of how things have been going with my progress, but haven't been posting them here. I probably should. So bare with me while I catch up with past entries. I've owned 75+ bikes in the past 15 years, but have never built a bike ground up from a bare frame, much less trying to assembly one from parts of several different models, so please be kind with the criticisms. I know that I'm not following that same path as many others would, or think I should. My objective may be a bit different than yours, and spending cash to resolve a problem with this build is not likely to be an option for me. So with that said, you're welcome to comment, ask questions, or give suggestions.

 

[witttom]

24-OCT-2013

Rarely will you see me putting pieces together. I'm more of a take-it-apart kinda guy.

I'm calling this...
Project Zero
...because it is my intent to put ZERO dollars into it.

Over the past couple years of parting out UJM's, I've been accumulating extra parts that I have pulled aside for myself, and have a variety of parts that simply haven't sold (despite being 'good' parts). I've known for a while now that I've had enough parts to essentially build a bike. I keep telling myself NOT to do it, because... well, I have better things to do. I know that going together is much more time consuming that coming apart. I will be using parts that will eventually sell (and I'd RATHER sell). BUT... I've been looking at this titled-frame hanging from my basement rafters, powder-coated black and super sleek.

It's an 81 GS750L. What makes it an 'L' is essentially the seat, the tank, and the leading axle front forks. Some of the tabs and the rear hoop on the frame vary slightly too. But other than that, it is pretty much just like the GS750E frame. The backbone is also WIDER than the 77/78/79 GS750 frame, with more cross bracing, and overall just a beefer more rigid frame. It's a good starting point.

I have multiple front ends that I could mount to it, but I've always liked the front from my GS850G parts bike. Larger diameter tubes, wider triple trees, and dual disk brake setup. I've tried to talk several other GS members into using this as an 'upgrade' on their machines, but have not been successful. I wanted to use them myself (if I ever got around to this project). The GS triple tree assembly uses taper bearings (and it has a good set on it), and the 750L frame has cups intended for taper bearings. Perfect match. So that's where they're going.

The GS850 uses the NEWER style wheels though. The only matching wheel that I have for the rear, is for a shaft drive. That won't do. I have three different wheels that I can use on the rear. One from the 750L which is very clean and polished, but a 16" rim, one from an 82GS750E, and one from an 82GS650E. Both 'E' wheels are 18", and essentially identical.

I also have the choice of two different swingarms. The stock swingarm for the 750L is also powder-coated, and man it looks sweet. The 650E swingarm is not as nice cosmetically, but it uses a different mounting method for the rear shocks. I WANT to use the 650E rear shocks, because they are black, AND they are both pre-load and dampening adjustable (not just pre-load). The swingarm and rear wheel is still mounted on my parts bike. It's less work to remove the 650E wheel than it is to remove the 750E wheel (because I want it to remain a roller), so to save me some work, I remove the whole swingarm/axle/wheel as one unit. These parts desperately need cleaned though, and I think I'm going with the 750L swingarm (because it looks SO much better) and chrome rear shocks (because I have to), so I separate everything anyway. As I lay the swingarms next to each other to compare them cosmetically, I notice a difference....

The 650E swingarm is an inch or two shorter. Decision made! I'm going with the 650E, despite the 750L swingarm looking better. Mechanically, and from a performance perspective, I think it's a better choice.

 

[witttom]

24-OCT-2013

How cool is this... a Suzuki-branded square head bolt. These are actually the rear sprocket studs, that feed in from the inside of the sprocket carrier hub.

The HARDWARE has been the biggest challenge with the project so far. Even though the hardware from one bike to the next LOOKS the same, I've encountered several situations where it is ever-so-slightly different. As an example....

I'm swapping out the front wheel with one that matches the rear. I'm using the 750L 19" wheel because it is in really good shape cosmetically, and it's a dual rotor wheel. The 750L is COMPLETELY disassembled though, down to every nut and bolt. The rotors are not on the wheel, so I have to install them, which means I also have to find suitable rotor bolts. As I'm installing a rotor, I notice that some of the bolts (which I'm not sure where they came from) are bottoming out. I dig out the exact bolts from my pile of 750L parts, and find that the bolts that originally came with this wheel are 1/16" shorter. Geez.... They look the same from one model to the next, but they're not.

 

[witttom]

24-OCT-2013

So after about 10 hours, this is where I am.....

82GS850G triple trees and forks, 81GS750L frame, 82GS650E rear swingarm and rear wheel, GS750L front wheel, Honda CB650 headlight bucket, GS850 fork ears (turned upside down), GS650E rear shocks. Clubman handlebars.

The center stand is from the 650E, which I mounted with hardware from a 79GS750N, but after getting the rear swingarm and wheel mounted, I discovered that it's actually too short. It might work ok for now, and maybe I'll ditch it completely later in the build.

 

[witttom]

25-OCT-2013

Oh this is going to be good. I'm in. What's on the drawing board for the engine, tank, seat?

I was going to use the old tank off my 78GS750 (it has a big dent in it), but I forgot that the 80's GS750 frames are wider at the backbone, and that tank won't work. Just discovered this last night, when I set it on the frame to see what it looked like, only to find the tunnel to be too narrow. So my only option right now, is the tank from my 82GS750E. It looks REALLY nice and I don't mind using it, but it's worth quite a few bucks (IMHO) and using it for myself means that I'm not selling it for cash. Hehe...

I don't have a solid plan for the seat just yet, although I do have some oddball ideas bouncing around in my head involving wood.

As far as the engine goes, I've struggled with this decision for a while now. I basically have three options:

1 - 82GS650E
2 - 78GS750E (8-valve)
3 - 82GS750E (16-valve)

All three should theoretically bolt right into this frame.

650-8V

The 650 is about an inch narrower than the others and I have a decent 4-into-1 exhaust system for it, but I'm least familiar with this engine, I do not have a set of carbs for it, and I don't know the history (I don't know if it runs, or has issues, or what those issues might be).

750-8V

I've been leaning toward the 8-valve GS750, because I'm most familiar with it, it's really quite simple and shouldn't have any electronics that my trip me up (lacks safety switches and extra gizmos), and I was told that it ran (for whatever that is worth). I don't know the history though, I do not have a set of carbs for it, and I stole the points off of it earlier this year. I would probably need to cough up some doe for an electronic ignition conversion.

750-16V

I'm been shying away from the 16-valve GS750, because it has a BIG instrument cluster and I think I will likely be forced to use it with this engine and wiring harness. Suzuki packed a lot of extra electronics and gizmos into this bike. It also has a tranny problem that currently has it locked up (the tranny that is, not the engine). HOWEVER. I believe that I can fix it by pulling the clutch basket and addressing an alignment issue with the selector arm thingie (not the internal dog legs). The more I look at the instrument cluster, the more I like it (and it will probably be tucked inside a cafe fairing eventually anyway). I have ALL of the wiring harness, electronics, everything... even the carbs, so transferring it ALL over to the 'Zero' project aughta be pretty straight forward (cross my fingers). Cosmetically, the engine looks pretty nice too. The exhaust, not so much. I think this is my donor engine though. Oh, and I believe this engine only has 7k miles on it.

Again, any of these engines should bolt right in.... but, the one that would give me the least amount of trouble, would be the 16V one (this 'L' frame originally had a 750-16V in it that was REAL close to the 'E' version I'm wanting to drop into it).

 

[witttom]

25-OCT-2013

You got me when you named it "zero".. :lol:

This will be very interesting to watch come together, hope you can stay with it as time goes along as we all know how real life gets in the way of our fun!

I've put about 10 hours into it over a three day period (2hrs here, 5 hours there, another hour, another hour, etc...). The basics came together real quick (maybe a couple hours), but I've had the front end off and on three times now, I put a TON of time into trying to make a set of clip-ons work only to come full circle back to the Clubmans, and I spent a bunch of time trying to mount a small set of gauges that would not interfere with the clip-ons. I probably threw away 5 or 6 hours of work. I think that's something that I'm gonna hafta get used to. I hate 'wasted' time, but on a project like this, there is a lot of trial and error.

I have another one of those 'Trial and Error' moments coming up.

Since I've pretty much decided to use the 16V 750, I pulled the donor bike along side the 'Zero' bike last night and was comparing the geometric differences between the two. Zero has a much shorter wheelbase and appears to be a steeper rake. It's a much more compact package, and I'm tickled with the results. So I'm making preparations to start switching things over, the instrument cluster, the ignition, etc... and figure if I'm gonna use the ignition and the fuel tank, key'd the same... that I would be swapping the helmet lock over too (it's a cafe, I don't really NEED it, but figure why not). So I start looking for the helmet lock mounting point on Zero, and see that it is different. That's when I noticed it tucked up tight to the left shock. So much so, that it has it in a bit of a bind. Damn. Didn't notice that before..... <sigh> So now that means I'm either going to have to go with different rear shocks and/or a different rear swingarm, or I will have to cut that mounting tab off (which I really don't want to do, with a powder-coated frame).

I really think I will be switching back to the 750L swingarm to allow me to use a different set of shocks without interference problems. That will lengthen the wheelbase by an inch or so, but it DOES look really nice (matching powder-coat). I'm not too keen on using the chrome rear shocks, but they're darn near perfect.

I will be throwing out a bunch more invested time again, BUT... it's really important that I get the groundwork for this bike sorted out FIRST, before I drop the engine into it (much easier to make suspension changes NOW).

 

[witttom]

25-OCT-2013

I've often thought of upgrading the single disc front brake on my '82 750 T-model but never seriously. *It's good to know an 850 front end will work...might have to start watching eBay.

Fairly easy and straight forward swap too, except that you have to keep in mind that the 850 fork tubes might be longer than your 750T. This has presented some problems for me in this project, as allowing the forks to slide up through the triple trees (which is what I've done) has caused interference problems with the handlebars. I'm addressing that though.

I really haven't figured out if I truly have a different rake with this setup, or the steeper angle is a bit of image trickery.

Zero sits lower, essentially 'leaning forward'. The effect is the same, although I'm not sure if the true angle has changed. I may have to take some precise measurements, just so I know out of curiosity.

 

[witttom]

30-OCT-2013

Trial and errors continue....

After thinking about it for a few days (and not being able to work on it, because I blew out my right knee really bad this past weekend), I spent a couple hours this afternoon removing the GS650 rear wheel/swingarm/shocks in favor of the longer GS750L swingarm (which is also powder-coated and ultra nice) that uses nicer shocks that do not bind up on the helmet lock mounting tabs on the frame. Encountered several unexpected changes along the way (always a bit of a domino effect), addressing each of them as I came to them.

Finally got to the point of mounting the rear wheel and axle and discovered that none of my spacers seem to 'add up' to the total span from one side to the next. I dug, and I dug, through several tubs of various GS models, and FINALLY came up with an extra spacer that I felt would fill the gap correctly and get the wheel aligned to where it should be, slipped the axle the rest of the way through, and discovered that it itself was about an inch too short. Sh!t. That explains why I'm having a spacer problem. Measure the 750L swingarm. Yup. It's about an inch WIDER than the GS650 swingarm.

:-s

Not a problem. I'll just use the original GS750L axle. I track it down, bring it back, start to slide it through and discover it's a larger diameter! Ah, sh!t. It won't pass through my spacers, nor will it pass through the GS650 wheel. Damn it, damn it, damn it. Even though the GS650 wheel LOOKS the same as the others, it has different bearings, and uses that smaller diameter rear axle.



So, now... I'm stuck. Again. I either have to swap everything back to the GS650 setup and deal with the helmet lock tab interference (probably cut it off, which I don't want to do to a powder-coated frame), or I have to steal the rear wheel (which does look a bit nicer than the 650) and axle spacers from the 82GS750E that is still a roller.

I quit for the day, while I ponder.

:-k

Approx 13 hours invested, of which about 7 of those have been hours that have been tossed out (or maybe I should call those 'Research & Development' hours), and I'm a couple steps back from where I originally started today.

 

[witttom]

04-NOV-2013

Spent two or three hours this evening on this bike. I stole the rear wheel and axle spacers from my 82GS750E parts bike, and mounted it on 'Zero'. I had one little hiccup when I had trouble pushing the axle through, and discovered that I was still using the sprocket carrier bushing/bearing from the 650E. I swapped it out with a larger ID one from a 750. All of that went pretty well and fit like it should.

I also mounted a rear master cylinder and reservoir. It was my intent to use the rear caliper from the 650E, because it is slightly smaller, the brake line port is angled down rather than point out the back, and uses a shorter brake line for a more clean appearance. It also has good pads on it. BUT, when I went to hook it up to the brake arm stay, it didn't line up. Damn. The caliper must be different enough where it's not gonna work. So I dig out a couple 750 rear calipers. One had good pads, but the pistons were siezed up. The other had good movement but bad pads. So I tore them down, swapped out the pads, and clean it up. I mounted it, and quickly discover that it too didn't line up with the brake arm stay. Damn, damn. That's when I realized that I had the brake arm stay mounted wrong. Spent a good amount of time removing the hardware so that I could flip it around. Once I got that sorted out, I realized that I could still use the 650 caliper, so I did. Filled the system with fluid, bled it, I now have rear brakes.

 

[witttom]

06-NOV-2013

Not much seems to be easy with this project. Every step of the way, I get tripped up. I think I'm into it about 20 hours now.

I mounted up the front brakes earlier this evening, 850 calipers and hoses/brackets from the 650 (mainly because they were all tied together already with the splitter block). That all went pretty well.

I've been struggling with the decision to begin stealing some important parts from the GS750E donor bike (instrument cluster, wiring harness, fuel tank, electronics, etc) before I get that 16-valve engine running, or spend the time to sort the engine out BEFORE moving anything over. The smart/logical move would probably be to sort it out before, but that means I'm not making much progress with ZERO and I can't move over some key components yet. I've been desperately wanting to move the instrument cluster over to see how it fits. I thought I would at least do that this evening. Unhooking it wasn't as easy as other instrument clusters though, as it had 'extra' wires running under the tank. That required me to remove the tank to discuss those bits. Since I'm removing the tank anyway, I figured I'd go ahead and place it on ZERO. That would at least make me feel like I'm making some significant progress.

Upon TRYING to mount the tank, I discover (to my great surprise) that this is not a direct bolt-on. I never would have guess. I have two formidable issues preventing me from doing so.

Problem ONE. The two 'pucks' are mounted in a different location. On the 'E' frame, they are forward a couple inches.

E frame:

L frame:

You'll noticed that there is a HOLE passing through the frame on the L model, where the pucks need to be. That's a good thing. I essentially mount the pucks there with a bolt passing through.

Problem TWO: The rear tank mount on the E is located back further, maybe a couple inches. Suzuki had an extra bracket mounted to the frame here.

E frame:

L frame:

I used some Honda rear fender grab rail bolt extension thingies to space it back.

I'm not super-please with this, but it works. Good enough for now. I may try to come up with a better solution later.

 

[witttom]

06-NOV-2013

It's starting to look like a real bike now.

But every step forward I take, it seems like I'm walking up a steeper and steeper hill (and it's a long hill!).

The wiring from the 82GS750E is starting to freak me out a bit. It is 10X more complicated than my 78GS750. Theoretically, everything should just plug into the same spot when going back together, but there's a LOT of sh!t. The 16-valve 750 has a lot of extras. Fuel gauge, temp gauge, kickstand light, and lots of other lights. I have wires running off in so many directions, I don't know what half of it is. It's crazy. It's intimidating.

 

[witttom]

06-NOV-2013

I mounted the instrument cluster. I'm not real pleased with it. It's big. I'm HOPING that I can stuff all that behind a cafe fairing, but I'm having some doubts.

One of the reasons I have been going with the 16-valve 750, is BECAUSE of all the extras and the big instrument cluster (it's cool!). It's like having all the stuff from a modern bike. But this makes the project significantly more complicated, and I have to admit... the thought of changing paths and tossing my spare 8-valve engine into this bike has crossed my mind more than once tonight. That could potentially open up a whole list of other problems though ...like the fact that I don't have a set of carbs, or points (or electronic ignition) for that engine.

 

[Guest]

super impressed with this thread. Love the fact that you are going to put a bike together at zero cost.

 

[eil]

Cool project! Piecing the thing together using parts from different models sure does look like an interesting challenge. Hope it all works out. Keep us up to date.

 

[witttom]

super impressed with this thread. Love the fact that you are going to put a bike together at zero cost.

Thanks.

Well... Zero is the goal, but I know realistically I'm eventually going to have to buy something. Hehe.... I'm not going to count 'Perishables' (tires, chain, fluids, etc) against my total built cost, although I MIGHT be able to make do with what I have. I really want to use the tires from my 82GS750E donor bike because they appear to have virtually no miles on them and they are 'vintage cool', BUT they're 20 years old. Even though they show no signs of dry rot or weather checking, I know they're not safe. 'Zero' is also a bit of an accounting game, because it's not like I got all these parts for free. I've invested the time and money into the acquisition of the parts bikes from which they came, but they're the leftovers, they're in my possession, and they're already paid for. So in THAT sense... zero.

 

[witttom]

Cool project! Piecing the thing together using parts from different models sure does look like an interesting challenge. Hope it all works out. Keep us up to date.

I -THOUGHT- that was going to be the easy part... like assembling legos from different kits. You look at one part on a 650, and see the same part on a 750 or 850, and say... 'Hey, that's the same part!". But that's not always true. In fact, it's fairly common for it NOT to be true, sometimes even from one 750 model to another. Some parts may look the same, but there is often a subtle difference. I'm learning that more and more every day. It is definitely a challenge, or bigger than I had anticipated. I had this plan, or 'recipe' in my head for some time now, but as I progress through it, it's constantly changing. The bike itself is making a lot of the decisions, as strange as that may sound.

 

[witttom]

I've been wanting to bite the bullet and go ahead and move the engine over, but before doing so, I have to remove the carbs and a few other things. Before I get to THAT, I felt I should at least have a look at the clutch, probably pull it to have a look at what is jamming it up behind the clutch basket. Before I do that, I obviously have to drain the oil.

So, I pull the oil plug and.... SPLOOSH!!! Something MUCH thinner than oil comes gushing out. I immediately assume it to be kerosene. Why? I dunno. Can I tell the difference between 20yr/old kerosene and 20yr/old gasoline? I dunno. It looks to be about 90% whatever, 10% oil. I bet I got roughly 4 quarts out of it. It's nasty stuff. That's a big red flag. Scary, but I proceed.

I remove the clutch (I'll spare you the details of what it takes to do that). Feeling pretty confident, because I've done this a couple times now with parts bike engines that I have broken down. It's amazing what you can learn when you have no fear of f@?king something up. Hehe...

I expect to find a misalignment problem with one of the mechanical arms behind the basket, but it seems fine. Not what I was expecting to see.

With the clutch gone, the drive shaft/sprocket is now freed up and spins. HOWEVER. The tranny still does not shift. It's still jammed up. ...and the engine does not turn. That tells me either the tranny has MAJOR problems (and preventing the engine from turning over), OR the engine is genuinely locked up, or both. Either way, I'd have to split the case to figure it out.

This should have been one of the first things for me to do, but I've been working on some assumptions (wishful thinking?). I'm just glad I discovered this before dropping it into project Zero.

Damn. What a bummer.

 

[steve murdoch]

That is a tough discovery, alright.
btw, nice quality pics. Most of mine look like a 2 year old took them.

 

[ron bayless]

whew! This is way too hard for me to even think about doing. I hope you can get your engine unlocked.

 

[witttom]

whew! This is way too hard for me to even think about doing. I hope you can get your engine unlocked.

I will most likely be changing direction, and going with an older 8-valve 750.