R/R Question--Something's Up

[ryonker]

Ok, so I installed my "New" Honda R/R from Duane and I know it is good. I also know my stator is putting out about 72 volts from each leg.

I hooked up the R/R, and here is what I got. Revving the engine up to 2500 rpms, I get about 14 volts, sometimes closer to 13.80.

This passes the the first test on the flow chart.

However, when I rev it higher, like 3 to 5 k, it drops back down to 13.5 volts. I can't get it over 14 volts.

So I did the next test. I unhooked the red wire of the R/R. I put my MM's black lead to the pos. battery terminal and the red lead to the red wire on the R/R. I get 8 volts. According the the chart, I am supposed to get less than .2v.

I traced the red wire from where it connects to the R/R all the way to the fuse box and to the battery. Every where I checked I get about 12volts. I did notice that the red wire connecting to the R/R is hooked up kind of funny to the main red wire coming off the fuse box. The wire is just stripped and the R/R connecting wire was just wrapped around it and soldered and taped over with electrical tape.

Any suggestions my friends?

Rick

addendum: I hooked up the sensor wire to the orange wire with the green strip coming out of the fuse box. I am pretty sure that one goes to the brake light switch and it is switched 12v.

*Edit: Problem was solved. Jump to the last couple posts if you want to see what happened*

 

[reddirtrider]

I myself am finding it hard to follow what you're doing. Red wire, black wire, green wire, etc - personally I don't care what color the wire is - what does it do? Is the red wire a sense or the output of the R/R/, or?

I'll leave it to those the know what the red wire really is.

 

[ryonker]

I myself am finding it hard to follow what you're doing. Red wire, black wire, green wire, etc - personally I don't care what color the wire is - what does it do? Is the red wire a sense or the output of the R/R/, or?

I'll leave it to those the know what the red wire really is.

Yeah, my description is a little confusing. The Red wire coming of the R/R connects to the 12v red wire that comes from the battery, then through the fuse box then into the bike. It is the hot 12v wire.

The sense wire is black on the R/R and I believe it just monitors the voltage flow. It is hooked to a switched 12v wire.

 

[ryonker]

If the description is too confusing, I can take some pics.

The other thing I haven't considered is that maybe it's charging just fine. I was thinking I needed to go up past 14v (around 14.5) as I revved the engine toward 5k rpms. I know it is supposed to be higher than 13.5v and less than 14.8, which it is. It just won't go over 14v.

Rick

 

[ryonker]

I need help you electrical gurus!

I just charged the battery for a while to be sure that I had a full charge. I checked the connections again and cleaned both fuse boxes.

I hooked everything back up, and checked it again. Right now, at idle, I am getting about 13.6 volts. Somewhere between idle and 2500 rpms I can get to 14v, but it immediately drops back down. I am getting 13.5v at 5000 rpms.

I am not sure when you do the first check on the stator papers if you unhook the red R/R lead to check it with the voltmeter. When I leave it totally hooked up I am getting .5v which is still higher than the .2v as stated in the flow chart.

What should I do next?

Rick

 

[flyingace]

The R/R seems to be acting like it should. Have you considered borrowing/buying another voltmeter and check the readings? Are you using one of those inaccurate analog types?

I mean you are really only 1/2 volt off.

 

[srsupertrap]

I believe you the symptom you are experiencing is voltage foldback. Posplayr has this subject down pat and has even created a revised flow chart which will work you thru thru all the T/S steps. The problems is most likely excessive resistance in the wires leading to or from the fuse block or excessive resistance in the fuse block itself.

I know exactly how you feel I had the exact same problem when I replaced those same components

 

[srsupertrap]

I traced the red wire from where it connects to the R/R all the way to the fuse box and to the battery. Every where I checked I get about 12volts. I did notice that the red wire connecting to the R/R is hooked up kind of funny to the main red wire coming off the fuse box. The wire is just stripped and the R/R connecting wire was just wrapped around it and soldered and taped over with electrical tape.

Any suggestions my friends?

Rick

I didn't read everything you wrote but if I was a betting man this connection would be my first suspect.

 

[pdqford]

So I did the next test. I unhooked the red wire of the R/R. I put my MM's black lead to the pos. battery terminal and the red lead to the red wire on the R/R. I get 8 volts. According the the chart, I am supposed to get less than .2v

The 'next' test is checking the voltage drop of the circuit from the RR red output wire back to the battery (+) post. Re-read the test. It says to "Leave the RR connected to the bike" and leave the engine idling.

I am not sure when you do the first check on the stator papers if you unhook the red R/R lead to check it with the voltmeter. When I leave it totally hooked up I am getting .5v which is still higher than the .2v as stated in the flow chart.

What should I do next?

You leave the red wire (well, I'm not sure what color it is on the Honda regulator) hooked up as you need to have current flowing in the circuit from the red wire back to the battery (+) post. Your circuit is dropping 1/2 a volt so you must have excessive resisstance in that circuit. I don't know what kind of a bike we are working on, but I'd take a close look at a wiring diagram to see the route that circuit takes and then clean all connectors, fuse connectors, etc. and inspect that circuit for corroded or frayed wiring involved in that circuit

 

[BassCliff]

More on Stator Papers

More on Stator Papers

Hi,

Here is Mr. posplayr's work regarding Stator Paper improvements/clarifications:

More on the Stator Papers

Mr. posplayer has tweaked the first couple of pages of the Stator Papers fault finding chart to make the procedure more detailed and more thorough.

CLICK HERE to download the PDF file.

From Mr. posplayr:
Here is what I tried to do in modifying it [Phase A of the Stator Papers Fault Finding Chart]:

• Highlight with a table what you are doing in each step. I think this helps provide focus. I know when I was going through the table, I was not real clear what I was doing at every step in Phase A.

• The first step is to insure that the is some charging going on when you raise the idle up to 2500 RPM the battery voltage should increase. If it doesn't then you should still test and clean the connections in Step 2 and 3 but if the stator is bad, then you will get through all of Phase A and still have low output.

• Modify the voltage drop tests which are specified at idle to be less than 0.2 volts to perform the test at 5000 RPM and be less than 0.25V. This is critical as you could easily have less than 0.2 volts at idle and the have that voltage rise to 0.5-0.75 at 5000 RPM when the system is trying to push current to the battery. Depending upon the variability of the GS idle you might even be discharging and so the voltage drop will not even show up. This is probably the biggest issue in the diagnosis table.

• Modified the table to show an explicit 14.0-14.8 Battery charging range at 5000RPM. The is somewhat narrower than the Suzuki specificed 14.0 - 15.5V range. Regardless of the manual 15.5V at the battery is too high.

• Modified the table to insure that all three steps in Phase A are done even if you pass the output voltage range. This is important as the output voltage range is quite wide and it is not hard to com in with a 14.0V charging level due to some bad connections and in 2-3 months that corrosion has gotten worse and you are now charging at 13.5V. You would not really know this if all you did was look at the battery voltage. It is absolutely critical that the R/R is connected across the battery with low resistance and measuring the voltage at 5000 RM when charging is near maximum is a fool proof way of confirming proper operation.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[ryonker]

Just because I am paranoid, I checked my stator again and I am getting a solid 72 volts at all three legs at 4500 rpms.

Yes, I left the R/R fully connected and just shoved the red lead from my voltmeter into the red wire of the R/R and put the black lead of the voltmeter to the +pos. battery terminal. At 5000 rpms I am still getting .5v.

I will take a picture of where the R/R is connected to the red 12v wire coming out of the fuse box. Do I need to trace the red wire all the way up to the front of the bike, or just to the R/R connection?

Thanks for all the help. I just love this electrical stuff.

Rick

 

[Nessism]

I suggest bypassing the factory wiring when hooking up the R/R. Use a fuse in line with the positive output wire and run that direct to the battery. Likewise, run the negative straight to the battery, split off an eyelet and run that to ground. If you do it this way you will have minimal resistance in the circuit and the voltage drop will be minimized.

 

[ryonker]

I believe you the symptom you are experiencing is voltage foldback. Posplayr has this subject down pat and has even created a revised flow chart which will work you thru thru all the T/S steps. The problems is most likely excessive resistance in the wires leading to or from the fuse block or excessive resistance in the fuse block itself.

I know exactly how you feel I had the exact same problem when I replaced those same components

Ok, I am pretty sure this is it. I checked everything over several times; connections from the stator to the R/R, ground wire, etc.

When I checked the voltage with the bike running (like I said before) It goes up toward 14v, then back down.

When I checked the pos. battery to the red wire connection at the R/R (all connected), this time it started at about .25v and it steadily rose as I increased the rpms to about .8v at 4500 rpms and climbing.

The weird thing is, when I check the voltage at the red wire (where it connects with the R/R) with the bike off, I get pretty much the same voltage as when I check the battery itself. Why is this?

When I check the voltage at the fuse block, I get the same as when I check the battery (12.8 volts).

I am not sure what else to check?

Rick

 

[ryonker]

I suggest bypassing the factory wiring when hooking up the R/R. Use a fuse in line with the positive output wire and run that direct to the battery. Likewise, run the negative straight to the battery, split off an eyelet and run that to ground. If you do it this way you will have minimal resistance in the circuit and the voltage drop will be minimized.

OK, I will try this. What size fuse?

Thanks Ed!

Rick

 

[Sandy]

If there is a voltage drop from poor connections and/or switches in the wire you have the sense wire connected to, the R/R should be over charging to compensate for that drop. That doesn't sound like your problem however but that's how the voltage sense works with the Honda R/Rs. What it senses is what it does. For testing purposes to confirm whether you are having a problem with the R/R (I doubt) or whether it's in the wiring somewhere (probably) temporarily connect the sense wire and red wire from the R/R to the (+) side of the battery and (-) from the R/R (I think it's the green one) and take your reading that way. This will tell the sense wire exacting what's happening at the battery and eliminate the rest of the wiring. You should get readings of up to but not over 14.5 to 14.8 volts across the battery terminals at 4,000 to 5,000 rpm. If you've done the extra ground wire or made sure your grounds are alright your problems will be in the (+) side of your wiring. On my '79 I had a 2 volt drop at the coils, a sign that the wiring and/or switches were not healthy. Having gone through the wiring previously I knew it was good so it must have been the switches. Spraying the ALL THE switches with contact cleaner didn't really help as much as I had hoped. I then disassembled the switches including the ignition switch and gave them a good flooding with contact cleaner and worked them at the same time, blew them out with compressed air and repeated a couple of times. After I put everything back together my voltage drop at the coils with or without the bike running was only .5 volts. Although the drop is only .5 volts that would still cause the Honda R/R to overcharge at the battery by that amount and I was getting a charge around 15.3 volts. I then installed a relay strictly for the voltage sense wire and a small volt meter and voila my charging is now at a max of 14.8 volts. Sorry about the long winded post but maybe it'll give you some ideas about where to start testing and looking for a solution.

 

[ryonker]

Here is what I am going to try based on Nessism's suggestion and posplayers electronic genius;

Negative R/R to the -neg battery terminal. Positive R/R to the +pos battery terminal via a fused line.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=139115&highlight=Voltage+Foldback

Read the above post for detailed info. After I read it a couple of times it began to make sense.

Thanks guys!

Rick

 

[ryonker]

Success! It worked

Success! It worked

Here is what I am going to try based on Nessism's suggestion and posplayers electronic genius;

Negative R/R to the -neg battery terminal. Positive R/R to the +pos battery terminal via a fused line.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=139115&highlight=Voltage+Foldback

Read the above post for detailed info. After I read it a couple of times it began to make sense.

Thanks guys!

Rick

Fired up the bike this morning with the R/R hooked up as described above. After it warmed up, I checked the voltage at the battery. It went up to 14.5 volts exactly! No higher and it didn't drop back!:dancing:

Thanks Ed for the idea. Duane, thanks for the R/R! And thanks to all of you for your input.


Rick

 

[pdqford]

The weird thing is, when I check the voltage at the red wire (where it connects with the R/R) with the bike off, I get pretty much the same voltage as when I check the battery itself. Why is this?

I know what you are saying. I had trouble understanding this principle when I took some automotive electronics courses. When you check the voltage in a circuit that is not flowing any current, the meter reads what is known as OCV (Open Circuit Voltage). Since the circuit is not flowing current, it can't drop any voltage and the meter will read the same as the voltage source. The instant current begins to flow, some voltage will be dropped due to resistance and the meter will read the available voltage.

 

[posplayr]

I suggest bypassing the factory wiring when hooking up the R/R. Use a fuse in line with the positive output wire and run that direct to the battery. Likewise, run the negative straight to the battery, split off an eyelet and run that to ground. If you do it this way you will have minimal resistance in the circuit and the voltage drop will be minimized.

and run that to FRAME ground as close to the R/R as practical. Also make sure it is the Frame and not the side cover plate which is mounted in rubber.

 

[ryonker]

and run that to FRAME ground as close to the R/R as practical. Also make sure it is the Frame and not the side cover plate which is mounted in rubber.

So, are you saying to split the negative wire coming from the R/R and run one wire to the neg. Battery and one to the frame ground?

Thanks!

Rick