R/R Testing - Voltage through R/R

[081dbx64]

Ok

Here is a link to a picture of the charging circuit that came from the factory service manual for my bike. All along I have been testing my R/R with a meter set to diode mode. What has puzzled me is I continuity through the red wire and the white/Blue wire. I was told if current flows into the R/R it's bad. I think that was not correct.

Based on what I see it is normal to get continuity through the red and white/blue wire.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ATanKe0JNwhChOU1RQk17g?feat=directlink

I have a problem with my stator in that I get continuity from the same wire on the stator that connects to the white/blue wire from the R/R..

I have a current draw when the bike is off when I place a amp meter between either the ground wire or the positive wire to the battery.

I believe the bad stator is shorting to ground and draining my battery through the white/blue wire of the R/R.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

 

[posplayr]

Ok

Here is a link to a picture of the charging circuit that came from the factory service manual for my bike. All along I have been testing my R/R with a meter set to diode mode. What has puzzled me is I continuity through the red wire and the white/Blue wire. I was told if current flows into the R/R it's bad. I think that was not correct.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

I was probably the one propagating that notion about current flowing backwards, looking at the schematic of my GE1100's the regulator circuitry that drives the SCR's is outside of the block diodes (the SCR's are inside) and so there should be some small current draw in the the R/R. It must be small otherwise the R/R would draw down the battery when parked.

 

[081dbx64]

I get 12volts between the White/Blue wire and ground.

 

[081dbx64]

Yes..you were the one..but that made sense based on the diagram in the stator papers. I think they need to be revised. In that diagram there is no way current can flow from the red wire out the other side.

I think in my case since the R/R is grounding out that is draining the battery. I guess I will see because I have a new stator to put on this weekend. I also have a new R/R...but I'm not sure I need one.

I will most likely use it and bypass the stator going through my headlight switch. I have a new ESR100 R/R.

 

[081dbx64]

I think my theory makes sense now. All summer long my battery would drain after I parked it. Sometimes it would sometimes not. If the headlight switch is off then the current could not flow through the other side of the R/R. I never kept track of the headlight switch. But I am sure some times I left it on and sometimes not.

It just so happens that the very same stator wire is the one that shorts to ground. So if I leave the light switch on I in effect short the battery to ground through the stator. That's the theory anyway.

 

[posplayr]

I think my theory makes sense now. All summer long my battery would drain after I parked it. Sometimes it would sometimes not. If the headlight switch is off then the current could not flow through the other side of the R/R. I never kept track of the headlight switch. But I am sure some times I left it on and sometimes not.

It just so happens that the very same stator wire is the one that shorts to ground. So if I leave the light switch on I in effect short the battery to ground through the stator. That's the theory anyway.

That sounds like a plausible theory. I just went around around and around a few times with my buddy here at work. It is surprising how many different variations of regulator circuitry there is so it was hard to draw too many conclusions.

One think we did agree on is, because of the blocking diodes, the only current flow (in to the Red R/R wire) is through the regulator circuitry, which I see now turns out can be around the blocking diodes. There can't be too much current draining into the R/R (+) else you would be draining the battery.


So you have learned a valuable lesson, develop a theory to test before you go out to test. You should know what you are looking for. You may not find it and need a another theory but hopefully you will be on the way to learning what is going on.

Now that you have a theory, go measure the current into the red R when you have the engine off and you switch the headlamp on and off. It should be a very small amount. According to your theory it will be more when the light switch is switched on.

 

[081dbx64]

This should be easy to test. I will hook everything back up. Put my amp in series between the ground wire.

With the bike off turning the headlight switch on and off should change the reading.

I'll know on Sunday.

 

[posplayr]

This should be easy to test. I will hook everything back up. Put my amp in series between the ground wire.

With the bike off turning the headlight switch on and off should change the reading.

I'll know on Sunday.

Do it at the ground but also into the R/R to confirm all ground current is all going into the R/R Red.

 

[081dbx64]

I just tested it..I still get a current draw. I'm just going to change out the stator and see if it goes away. I'm guessing that's the problem. because it shorts to ground. My new one does not.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Do you actually have an ON/OFF switch for your headlight?



Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[081dbx64]

Yes...............its a 1980.first year you could not shut it off.but I filed down the little nub on the back of the switch.

 

[raistian77]

That sounds like a plausible theory. I just went around around and around a few times with my buddy here at work. It is surprising how many different variations of regulator circuitry there is so it was hard to draw too many conclusions.

One think we did agree on is, because of the blocking diodes, the only current flow (in to the Red R/R wire) is through the regulator circuitry, which I see now turns out can be around the blocking diodes. There can't be too much current draining into the R/R (+) else you would be draining the battery.


So you have learned a valuable lesson, develop a theory to test before you go out to test. You should know what you are looking for. You may not find it and need a another theory but hopefully you will be on the way to learning what is going on.

Now that you have a theory, go measure the current into the red R when you have the engine off and you switch the headlamp on and off. It should be a very small amount. According to your theory it will be more when the light switch is switched on.

Pos, what is the value of those resistors?

 

[BassCliff]

Yes...............its a 1980.first year you could not shut it off.but I filed down the little nub on the back of the switch.

Hi,

My bike doesn't have a switch, but it still had the wires running to the handlebars from the stator. I disconnected these wires and connected all three stator output wires directly to the input wires of the r/r unit. It makes for a healthier charging system.

The headlight switch would also cut out one leg of the stator when you turned the headlight off. This was to guard against overcharging the battery. My headlight is on all the time anyway. So I just did away with that useless loop of wire. Forgive me if I state the obvious.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[081dbx64]

So..if I by pass the light switch like you and don't use my headlight will it hurt my battery?

 

[posplayr]

Pos, what is the value of those resistors?

The resistors and the zener are there to fire the SCR when the voltage on the Red (+) output is too high. The SCR shorts the winding so that the current stays in the stator and doesn't go to the battery.

The SCR is like a latched diode. It is turned on by a "gate" (controlled by the zener and resistors) and then is shuts itself off when you try to drive current backward through it (when the AC reverses).

My buddy explained it to me, but can't say I followed it ; it is a little confusing so I won't even try. The complication though seems to be that the control circuit is not measuring the output with respect to the ground but rather the one phase.

I'm assuming it works as drawn. If someone has a P-Spice they could try and simulate it.

 

[BassCliff]

So..if I by pass the light switch like you and don't use my headlight will it hurt my battery?

Hi,

In this scenario, if you turn off the headlight and the charging system is still operating at full capacity, it is possible to overcharge your battery and boil off the water. You should always check the battery level anyway. I use an AGM battery, no maintenance.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[koolaid_kid]

I'm assuming it works as drawn. If someone has a P-Spice they could try and simulate it.

OHMYGOD!!
That brings back bad memories. Hopefully it works better (and faster) than it did in the 80s. A Monte-Carlo simulation on an 8088 (even with a math co-processor) could take hours.

 

[koolaid_kid]

Hi,

In this scenario, if you turn off the headlight and the charging system is still operating at full capacity, it is possible to overcharge your battery and boil off the water. BassCliff

Are you sure about that? I thought that is where the regulator part of the R/R kicks in and shunts the electrons to ground.

 

[081dbx64]

Well. what the heck is the regulator for then? I am replacing my stock R/R with a electrosport. It claims to regulate all three windings. So I should be ok right?

 

[081dbx64]

Here is what I found on Electrosports page.

TECHNICAL ISSUE DETAILSSuzuki's GS models all use a permanent magnet alternator system for charging the battery. This system consists of a stator with three output leads and a separate regulator and rectifier. The rectifier unit rectifies the stator AC output to DC and the output is connected to the battery. The regulator on these bikes is an extremely simple one wire affair. One of the three wires from the stator (YELLOW) feeds directly into the rectifier circuit without ANY regulation. One of the three stator wires (WHITE/BLUE) feeds into the rectifier AND has the ONE WIRE voltage regulator attached to it. The third stator wire (WHITE/GREEN) feeds into into the bike wiring harness, connects inside the headlight to the handlebar switch and comes back from the handlebar switch as a WHITE/RED wire which connects directly into the rectifier bridge without ANY regulation. Inside the handlebar switch the connection between WHITE/GREEN and WHITE/RED is made when the lights are turned on (which is not an option on US models, so the connection between these wires is continuous). NOTE: the stator output is identical on all three wires. The three different colors are not needed, it does not matter how you hook up the stator wires as long as you hook them all up. The result of this cost cutting is an unbalanced load on the stator (the stator wants to see an equal load on all three phase outputs) which causes premature stator failure. Our replacement regulator/rectifier replaces BOTH THE RECTIFIER AND THE REGULATOR and regulates on ALL THREE PHASE INPUTS. This means that the load on the three phase outputs of the stator is equal, greatly improving the system and its reliability. Our ESR models for these Suzukis therefore have THREE YELLOW INPUTS. And it does not matter which YELLOW wire connects to which stator output wire. We recommend removing the loop through the wiring harness and connect the WHITE/GREEN stator wire directly into the regulator/rectifier. If you replace the OEM stator with one of our ESG stators you will notice also that the output leads of this new stator are all YELLOW. We also recommend checking all electrical connections in these bikes. The connectors are not that great, and the bikes are fairly old by now. Clean the connectors one by one with some contact cleaner and make sure the bullet style connectors are tight. Our faultfinding chart: Fault Finding Guide will be a great help in diagnosing when you have a charging problem on these Suzukis. NOTE: These 8-valve GS550 models have a 12-pole three phase stator that has identical dimensions to the later 18-pole units (=ElectroSport ESG010). You can use an ESG010 in these older 8-valve models, but you will have to use the later model (80-83) GS850 flywheel. If you fail to change the flywheel the number of magnet poles does not match the stator and you will have NO OUTPUT from your new 18-pole stator.