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SqDancerLynn1
Guest
I was web hopping found this interesting article. Using computer fan to cool rec/reg www.geocities.com/motorcity/speedway/6198/reg-rect.html
on the sportbike network
on the sportbike network
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Anonymous
Guest
That's not actually a bad idea. Heat is hard on electronics, and these little CPU fans run on 12 Volts. You can tap them into just about anywhere. Hey, at $120 for a recitfier, and maybe $10 for a fan, I'm going to give it a whirl. Heck, I may even see what temp readings I get.
Roger
Roger
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Anonymous
Guest
Very interesting! I had heard/read somewhere that another option is to transfer the R/R unit to the front of the bike where airflow is better.
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Anonymous
Guest
:lol: Now that's cool. :lol:
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1100ED
Guest
of all the crazy ideas---
Well actually i just purchased a small cooling fan used for cooling microprocessors and have its installation on my to do list. Now i am thinking of cutting small pieces of a heat sink and epoxying them to the rectifier if it doesnt look too ugly. What do you think of the epoxy and extra heat sink idea???
Well actually i just purchased a small cooling fan used for cooling microprocessors and have its installation on my to do list. Now i am thinking of cutting small pieces of a heat sink and epoxying them to the rectifier if it doesnt look too ugly. What do you think of the epoxy and extra heat sink idea???
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Anonymous
Guest
I don't think epoxy is going to do the trick of efficiently transfering the heat to the sinks. You might be better off using a dialetric grease (such as the stuff sold for use with processor cooling fans) and semi-adhering extra sinks to the R/R with that. Further thought on this matter tells me that it might be possible to rig up a clip (again, like a computer's CPU) to hold this assemble tight against the R/R. Personally if heat is an issue, you might be better off rerouting some air flow across the R/R with a homemade ram.
Tony
For additional heat sink material to function, there must be good metal to metal contact. A layer of epoxy used to glue the extra material in place will act as an insulator and be self defeating.
If I felt that I needed to increase the cooling fin area, I would carefully drill 1/8" mounting holes through the fins and mount extra fins with 8/32 nuts and bolts.
Earl
For additional heat sink material to function, there must be good metal to metal contact. A layer of epoxy used to glue the extra material in place will act as an insulator and be self defeating.
If I felt that I needed to increase the cooling fin area, I would carefully drill 1/8" mounting holes through the fins and mount extra fins with 8/32 nuts and bolts.
Earl
1100ed said:
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Anonymous
Guest
Move it!
Move it!
The rectifier gets hotter the more work it has. More work=higher rpm=higher speed=more wind. I don't think a computer fan would do any big difference compared to the wind when driving. Move the regulator instead if you're worried.
Now for the electronic engineers reading:
Are the replacement regulators switched or regular? If they we're switched, they wouldn't absorb much energy at all. Someone who knows?
/ Henrik
Move it!
The rectifier gets hotter the more work it has. More work=higher rpm=higher speed=more wind. I don't think a computer fan would do any big difference compared to the wind when driving. Move the regulator instead if you're worried.
Now for the electronic engineers reading:
Are the replacement regulators switched or regular? If they we're switched, they wouldn't absorb much energy at all. Someone who knows?
/ Henrik
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gsman
Guest
Re: Move it!
Re: Move it!
My recti. is behind my left hand side panel so there is not much wind gonna hit it... an Electrix recti. is noticibly larger with larger fins than stock. harley puts theirs right in front of thr motor for cooling
Re: Move it!
Henrik Palm said:
My recti. is behind my left hand side panel so there is not much wind gonna hit it... an Electrix recti. is noticibly larger with larger fins than stock. harley puts theirs right in front of thr motor for cooling
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Anonymous
Guest
Henrik, what exactly do you mean by switched? I think they are just a series of transistors and diodes. I doubt Electrex does it much different. Just probably provides better components and cooling.
As for the cooling fan, I think there was significant proof in the original test series to prove that the cooling fan helped. We make a lot of different devices here where I work, and you'd be amazed how much just replacing ambient air surrounding a device can help. And remember... you bike isn't always moving while it's running, and this is when the temp increase can get high. Any chance to keep it from EVER getting hot will prolong its life.
One thing you could try that I just thought of... mount the reg/rec to a set of stand-offs to provide cooling across the back of it too (as much as the side cover allows anyway. It may be that the side panel is a type of heat-sink too, so don't do this without taking temp measurements.
Cheers,
Roger
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Anonymous
Guest
earlfor said:
I also have a small computer fan and will not use epoxy but will use screws as you suggest. I was also thinking of bolting some small heat sinks to a couple of the existing regulator finns
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Anonymous
Guest
Heat sink stuff
Heat sink stuff
As an avid PC cooler junkie, I know all sorts of tricks for cooling PC's.
As far as epoxy, they do make a heat sink glue, that will permenantly (more or less) glue a heat sink to what ever you stick it too.
I too have toyed with the idea of gluing extra heat sinks and other accesories to my R/R, but I could never find a place on the R/R that a heat sink would make enough contact with to be usefull. Considering that the R/R's are allready housed within a heat sink, i feel the best solution is to relocate them to the front of the bike, or I've noticed alot of people choose to put them behind the passanger footpegs for better airflow, and to avoid dripping acid from the battery.
Just my 2 cents
Heat sink stuff
As an avid PC cooler junkie, I know all sorts of tricks for cooling PC's.
As far as epoxy, they do make a heat sink glue, that will permenantly (more or less) glue a heat sink to what ever you stick it too.
I too have toyed with the idea of gluing extra heat sinks and other accesories to my R/R, but I could never find a place on the R/R that a heat sink would make enough contact with to be usefull. Considering that the R/R's are allready housed within a heat sink, i feel the best solution is to relocate them to the front of the bike, or I've noticed alot of people choose to put them behind the passanger footpegs for better airflow, and to avoid dripping acid from the battery.
Just my 2 cents
L
lecroy
Guest
1100ed said:
Not so crazy. More surface area, the lower the sink to air thermal resistance. Get a small tube of Silicone heat sink compound from the local electronics shop. Be care not to get any on you or your clothes. Mix it into your epoxy at about 10%. Make sure it's well mixed. Make sure the sink you plan to add fits good to the other surface and that the surfaces are free from oils and greese.
I don't like the fan idea because it's one more thing to fail. Normally when I ride, I am not sitting with the engine running, BSing. I am instead following granny, which is not much faster. This is where the air flow comes from to cool the electronics. If you do not have a good source of air while the bike is moving, you may want to consider making a duct to force the flow across the fins.
On my HD, they were smart enough to put the electronics in the front of the engine.
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Anonymous
Guest
Maybe a little air scoop on the side of the cover would do it without any real fancy work being necessary
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saaz
Guest
Without the standard air box in I think more air gets through. My regulator went about 20 years ago, no trouble since (early GSs had separate regulator and rectifiers)
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Anonymous
Guest
A well designed reg/rec (e.g. electrex) with robust components will be able to work flat out at max load in still air. The cooling fins are designed to have sufficient surface area such that the temperature difference between the air and the fins creates a stable temp in the reg/rec.
The heated air will not remain huddled round the reg/rec even while the bike is stationary. It will try to rise and will disperse due to convection and the principles of Brownian movement. At a given surface area, the reg/rec will not be able to get any hotter as the increase in temperature gradient will cause an increase in the rate of heat transfer.
The same principle ensures that aircooled engines don't just get hotter and hotter whilst in traffic. Eventually they stabilise. It may feel uncomfortable to you but if the manufacturers have done their sums right there will be no detrimental effect to the engine.
The main reason these things fail is probably more due to under-specification of components by the bike makers to save money. They fail when they get hot because the heat is an indication of how hard they are working.
Extra cooling can do no harm, heat is generally bad for electrical components. But if your reg/rec needs to be hung in the breeze to avoid premature failure, then it wasn't very well made in the first place.
I've had Electrex reg/recs on both of my GS's for some years now with no problems, and they're in the standard position hidden under the battery box (750) or behind the side panel (1000). They are much more heavily finned than the standard items and I would be willing to bet they use much higher grade componentry.
The heated air will not remain huddled round the reg/rec even while the bike is stationary. It will try to rise and will disperse due to convection and the principles of Brownian movement. At a given surface area, the reg/rec will not be able to get any hotter as the increase in temperature gradient will cause an increase in the rate of heat transfer.
The same principle ensures that aircooled engines don't just get hotter and hotter whilst in traffic. Eventually they stabilise. It may feel uncomfortable to you but if the manufacturers have done their sums right there will be no detrimental effect to the engine.
The main reason these things fail is probably more due to under-specification of components by the bike makers to save money. They fail when they get hot because the heat is an indication of how hard they are working.
Extra cooling can do no harm, heat is generally bad for electrical components. But if your reg/rec needs to be hung in the breeze to avoid premature failure, then it wasn't very well made in the first place.
I've had Electrex reg/recs on both of my GS's for some years now with no problems, and they're in the standard position hidden under the battery box (750) or behind the side panel (1000). They are much more heavily finned than the standard items and I would be willing to bet they use much higher grade componentry.
L
lecroy
Guest
"The heated air will not remain huddled round the reg/rec even while the bike is stationary. It will try to rise and will disperse due to convection and the principles of Brownian movement. At a given surface area, the reg/rec will not be able to get any hotter as the increase in temperature gradient will cause an increase in the rate of heat transfer. "
Wow, this is getting way over my head... On my old 83 bike, the fins are not mounted vertical, they are horizontal. So, when you calculate the effective surface area for convection cooling you are only looking at the tips of the fins for the most part. On that bike, while in motion, it makes sense that the air travels in a horizontal flow and why the fins are in this direction. Same holds true for the block. Now if I sit that same air cooled bike on a dyno and load it for very long, it's not going to like it. I call this the Being Stupid Principle (BSP). Will it (engine or electronics) fail if engine is left to idle for long periods with only convection cooling? Too many things to consider. Why run the bike while you blab on end to your buds? I guess that was my point.
"The main reason these things fail is probably more due to under specification of components by the bike makers to save money. "
I guess I just have not seen that many problems with any of my bikes to comment on this. The one time I did have a failure it was because when I was riding the battery opened. I got something like a load dump which took out every light bulb on the bike along with the electronic tach and regulator. Could the tiny guys have protected against this kind of failure, sure. I won't hold that one against them though.
I am not sure what you mean when you say "higher grade componentry". Assuming you are talking the temperature rating for the devices, it has nothing to do with the failure rate for a given device. As long as the designer takes the temperature drift into account, it is very possible to run 70 degree commercial grade parts at 105 and higher with the same reliablity as their automotive grade brothers.
I think when I looked at the schematics for that stock GS regulator that failed they had some kind of three phase triac schem that used the stator as a dump. This has been several years ago, so don't quote me on this one. But I think you could make a better charging unit using a small buck convertor that runs in current mode with a voltage limit what would be much more efficient than the stock part.
Wow, this is getting way over my head... On my old 83 bike, the fins are not mounted vertical, they are horizontal. So, when you calculate the effective surface area for convection cooling you are only looking at the tips of the fins for the most part. On that bike, while in motion, it makes sense that the air travels in a horizontal flow and why the fins are in this direction. Same holds true for the block. Now if I sit that same air cooled bike on a dyno and load it for very long, it's not going to like it. I call this the Being Stupid Principle (BSP). Will it (engine or electronics) fail if engine is left to idle for long periods with only convection cooling? Too many things to consider. Why run the bike while you blab on end to your buds? I guess that was my point.
"The main reason these things fail is probably more due to under specification of components by the bike makers to save money. "
I guess I just have not seen that many problems with any of my bikes to comment on this. The one time I did have a failure it was because when I was riding the battery opened. I got something like a load dump which took out every light bulb on the bike along with the electronic tach and regulator. Could the tiny guys have protected against this kind of failure, sure. I won't hold that one against them though.
I am not sure what you mean when you say "higher grade componentry". Assuming you are talking the temperature rating for the devices, it has nothing to do with the failure rate for a given device. As long as the designer takes the temperature drift into account, it is very possible to run 70 degree commercial grade parts at 105 and higher with the same reliablity as their automotive grade brothers.
I think when I looked at the schematics for that stock GS regulator that failed they had some kind of three phase triac schem that used the stator as a dump. This has been several years ago, so don't quote me on this one. But I think you could make a better charging unit using a small buck convertor that runs in current mode with a voltage limit what would be much more efficient than the stock part.
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Anonymous
Guest
With regard to the cooling issue, you are assuming that the reg/rec has been designed to have some airflow over it. This may not be the case.
Undoubtedly the engine needs airflow at high load and the designers take this into account. If they had to assume zero airflow the fins would have to be huge, but it could still work. Because of its location, the designer would be reasonable to assume that an engine would receive good airflow and that there would be more as the load increases.
Engines get a lot hotter than reg/recs. The finning on reg/recs is enormous compared with engines, and can rely on conduction of heat to the air with zero(or very little) airflow.
You are right in saying that the design can affect the efficiency and therefore the amount of heat produced.
Its possible for there to be 2 components nominally rated for, say, 70 degrees, one of which is cheap crap and will fail sooner, despite what the maker may claim. You get what you pay for.
Undoubtedly the engine needs airflow at high load and the designers take this into account. If they had to assume zero airflow the fins would have to be huge, but it could still work. Because of its location, the designer would be reasonable to assume that an engine would receive good airflow and that there would be more as the load increases.
Engines get a lot hotter than reg/recs. The finning on reg/recs is enormous compared with engines, and can rely on conduction of heat to the air with zero(or very little) airflow.
You are right in saying that the design can affect the efficiency and therefore the amount of heat produced.
Its possible for there to be 2 components nominally rated for, say, 70 degrees, one of which is cheap crap and will fail sooner, despite what the maker may claim. You get what you pay for.
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lecroy
Guest
brit7.11 said:
Oops, I didn't think I was assuming anything. Just pointing out effective surface area for a hoz. mounted fin.
Does an engine get hotter than the electronics? Where on the engine are we talking? We used to use the outlet coolant from the radiator and feed this into a small heat exchanger that cooled the electronics.
Would be interested to see some data on that last comment. Who do you feel makes better and worse of the same parts? Are you calling a part a whole assembly, or a discrete component like an SRC or IGBT? Plastics have made such a big change in electronics during the past 12 years that we hardly even use ceramic anymore. You you think the ceramic parts are better because they cost more?
On my old larger air-cooled GS engines there is no room for fins. No air flows between the cylinders! Of course they only run under load for a few seconds.
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Anonymous
Guest
You're making me tired here.
Effective surface area? Look, bigger fins equals more cooling. If the fins on an engine were big enough you wouldn't need any airflow. Many electronic items in household and industrial goods are finned for cooling but have no airflow over them. I'm suggesting that a reg/rec may need minimal airflow to achieve a good rate of heat transfer.
Do engines get hotter than electronics? In general, yes. OK pedant go and find me an example of something to prove me wrong, but you know where I'm coming from.
On the last point, you also know the answer to that. You know full well that I'm not talking about expense for the sake of it or rarity value. I'm talking about a designer trying to meet a budget and choosing the cheaper option in the design and/or the specification of discrete components. I'm also talking about 25 years ago in Japan. There are many examples of this I could give you both from my experience with bikes and in my work, but I can't be bothered.
I'm just trying to help people on this website. You?
Effective surface area? Look, bigger fins equals more cooling. If the fins on an engine were big enough you wouldn't need any airflow. Many electronic items in household and industrial goods are finned for cooling but have no airflow over them. I'm suggesting that a reg/rec may need minimal airflow to achieve a good rate of heat transfer.
Do engines get hotter than electronics? In general, yes. OK pedant go and find me an example of something to prove me wrong, but you know where I'm coming from.
On the last point, you also know the answer to that. You know full well that I'm not talking about expense for the sake of it or rarity value. I'm talking about a designer trying to meet a budget and choosing the cheaper option in the design and/or the specification of discrete components. I'm also talking about 25 years ago in Japan. There are many examples of this I could give you both from my experience with bikes and in my work, but I can't be bothered.
I'm just trying to help people on this website. You?
