Rookie Mistake?

[Roostabunny]

Had an odd experience just now...

On my way to work I had to switch to reserve (fuel gauge not working), so on my way home I stopped to get a couple of miles from work. I only put in a couple of gallons, planning to fill up at the cheaper station by my house. Who really counts $.10/gal when you're getting 40mpg? Well, saving on gas is a big part of the reason I started commuting on a bike in the first place. But I digress...

So I try to start the bike back up and she cranks like a dream but won't catch. I wore down the battery before I tried cranking with the throttle wise open (in case it was flooded). So I lucked out, found a driver with cables, and when I cranked it again, it roared right up and I rode home, stopping at the other gas station along the way with no problem.

So was I flooded? I thought I would smell gas if that were the case. I'm just glad I didn't get stranded.

 

[duaneage]

Next time put it on PRI. If you "hit" reserve and then shut the engine off, the carbs might still be nearly empty.

Wait 20 seconds after PRI is selected, then go back to RES or On, as the case may be.

 

[nert]

If this happens again!!!!!! I think you need a battery. Many people may jump up and down and holler, that it cranked over real good, battery must be good enough. EXCEPT, i think the starter cranks good at low voltage, but its not enough to provide ignition at the same time. Little boost from the outside, and it starts quicker than you can remove your thumb from the start button.

 

[Roostabunny]

If this happens again!!!!!! I think you need a battery. Many people may jump up and down and holler, that it cranked over real good, battery must be good enough. EXCEPT, i think the starter cranks good at low voltage, but its not enough to provide ignition at the same time. Little boost from the outside, and it starts quicker than you can remove your thumb from the start button.

I do need to check the battery. It starts every morning, but sometimes it gives me pause - like if I was clumsy with the throttle and choke and didn't get it to catch quickly I wouldn't have enough juice. I think it's fairly new (according to the PO), but I haven't checked it recently. I'll go search on battery maintenance.

 

[nert]

One other thing. The choke is a separate circuit. Complete with air and fuel. You should not turn the throttle when starting. Cold engine, choke full on, and crank. Should start immediately, than regulate choke lever to control engine speed and smoothness.

 

[spyug]

Nert is dead on with the starting procedure so do it that way when the weather is colder. In summer she should fire with no choke necessary but you'll have to wait quite a while to test that.

From you description I would be suspicious of the battery and electrical charging system.

First the battery. Pull it out of the bike and check that there is sufficient fluid in each bank if it is a conventional lead acid type. If any are down fill up to the mark with distilled water. Next, put it on a 1 amp trickle charger for a couple of hours and then measure the voltage between posts with your multi meter. After a good charge, if it is brand new it will likely show a resting charge of 13 to 13.5 volts which will drop to something in the high 12v range after a couple of hours and should stay at this level for several weeks before starting to fade. If the battery is older it should still show a charge of better than 12.5v and hold this for several days at least. If the charge drops below 12 volts after 24 hours or less it is starting to go. If you have a local auto store that deals in batteries you may be able to take it in for a "reconditioning" whereby they change the acid solution and recharge it for you.

Before putting the battery back in the bike take a good look at the possitive and negative leads and clean the contacts well. You should also clean the positive lead where it is bolted onto the solenoid and the end of the negative lead where it contacts the frame. At this time you should also clean up any "earths" ( black wires used as grounds like lights and such) and connections you can see. Bad grounds caused by dirty contacts are a leading cause of electrical failures on bikes. A good over the winter chore is to disconnect and clean all the connections in the wire harness and into the headlight bucket. Get them bright and shiny and slop on dielectic grease ( or a little vaseline jelly) to keep them clean.

Once the charged battery is back in the bike, start it up and get it to idle.
Taking your multimeter to the battery posts check the voltage which still should be better than 12.5 v. Have an assistant work the throttle up to enging revs of 3000 to 3500 and you should see voltage go up into the high 13 to low 14 v. This shows the charging system is functioning properly. Anything under 13 and you may be looking at issues with stator or reg/rectifier. Lets not go there just yet but if you have spare time read the "stator papers" on the main page for any info you will need in dealing with those issues.

To keep an eye on electrical things, I always put a voltage meter on all my bikes. You can get an anolog automotive type guage at most auto supply stores for about $10 and up. There are also several digital types that are popular. They are really easy to put in and readily show you charging voltage when riding. Good for peace of mind and an early warning for possible failures.

Batteries and electrical systems in general are often ignored until something happens but a little TLC every couple of months can't hurt and should be part of routine maintenance.

Let us know what you find.

Cheers,
Spyug

 

[Roostabunny]

Thanks Spyug!

My water was way low, so I added some distilled water. I've got a multi-meter and I think I've got a friend with a trickle charger, so maybe I'll be able to borrow it for the weekend. Then I'll run through your troubleshooting list.

Speaking of electrical, any tips on re-wrapping the wiring harness? Mine's starting to crack and crumble near the steering head from years of sun. The wires inside look OK at the moment, but like you said, no reason to wait till there's a bigger problem!

 

[Guest]

Here in AUS there is an insulation called Spiral Wrap,you blokes should have similar stuff I would imagine.Basically it's plastic insulation cut into a spiral.Just wind it around the outside of your wiring loom.Boom boom,job done.It's got really good abrasion resistance and still let's your loom flex at steering head etc.I've done my entire loom and can guarantee it's a good thing.I don't know where you'd get it in the States but I bought mine at an electrical contractor's supplier.Cheap as.Cheers,Simon.

 

[Roostabunny]

Here in AUS there is an insulation called Spiral Wrap,you blokes should have similar stuff I would imagine.Basically it's plastic insulation cut into a spiral.Just wind it around the outside of your wiring loom.Boom boom,job done.It's got really good abrasion resistance and still let's your loom flex at steering head etc.I've done my entire loom and can guarantee it's a good thing.I don't know where you'd get it in the States but I bought mine at an electrical contractor's supplier.Cheap as.Cheers,Simon.

This stuff? Terrific! I'm swimming in Spiral Wrap at work for our data collection equipment. :-D

Thanks for the tip! Do you know what's the longest piece I'll need? Cheers.

 

[Roostabunny]

First round troubleshooting

First round troubleshooting

OK, I was way low on water when I checked, so I filled up at each little hole, capped it, and rode home.

The terminals looked good - no corrosion at all. That's part of the reason I was willing to believe the batt was fairly new. Once the turkey coma wore off today I put a charger to the battery for a couple of hours, disconnected it, then got a measurement across the terminals of about 12.6V

While idling I got around 12.5-12.6V and at about 3000rpm I got about 13.0-13.4V at the terminals.

These voltages are from memory, but if a tenth one way of the other makes a difference, let me know and I'll do it again with a pen and paper this time.

What do you think?

 

[rphillips]

Congrats, looks like your batt. & charging system are fine.

 

[Roostabunny]

Update - it happened again...

Update - it happened again...

OK it happened again, this time without getting gas, making me think it's not a fuel/flooding problem. I started up and rode to the bank about 5 minutes from my work. In the bank 5-10 minutes and then when I tried to start her up again she cranked but wouldn?t catch. After 1-2 minutes of cranking (tried WOT in case it was flooded) the battery was too weak to crank anymore. A co-worker came with jumper cables and it fired up instantly and ran fine all the way back.


In summary, here's the pattern I'm seeing...

• Ride for 5
• Off for 5
• Cranks but won?t start
• Starts right up with jumper cables

I ran it for another five minutes in the parking lot when I got back, which apparently wasn?t enough and the cranking still sounds tired. I don?t think it had even gotten to operating temp. I'm guessing I'll need another jump to get it started to go home.


Battery voltage and charging voltage had checked out on the weak side of OK after I refilled the water (it was way low - below the plates in one cell) and trickle charged for a couple of hours. Contacts were not corroded at all.



Think it might still be the battery? Too abused with letting the water get so low and not enough juice to crank and get sufficient spark after a short ride? Could it have to do with the valve clearances (I've read that can lead to hard starting)?

 

[TheCafeKid]

Id say so..try a new battery. At least then if thats not it you will know for sure, and it cant hurt to have a new one, especially with winter down time coming up. Just my opinion.

 

[nert]

see reply and explanation post #3 of this thread.
Also, exposed battery plates (low on water) will sulfate, rendering poor battery capacity. Very difficult to recover a sulfated battery.

 

[Roostabunny]

see reply and explanation post #3 of this thread.
Also, exposed battery plates (low on water) will sulfate, rendering poor battery capacity. Very difficult to recover a sulfated battery.

Good point - you did say that.

Well I've got a Batteries Plus down the street where I could pick up one of these for $40, or an Everstart from Wallyworld for $33. Since I live so close to both places I feel like it's not worth the extra $7 to get a non-Walmart (some would say cheapo destined to fail sooner other say there's only 4 battery factories in the world and they just slap different labels on as the roll off the line) product, but I'm sure you guys will have an opinion.

 

[Roostabunny]

OK, so here's a "duh" moment.

Note to self: Motorcycle batteries do not come pre-charged at Walmart.

Maybe that's what the extra $7 is for at the other place. Of course, in my eagerness and "efficiency", I had just ridden up, pulled the old battery out, and walked in to the auto center. Fortunately, after I figured out that the acid is in a bottle with the battery and not actually in the battery, I was able to head back to the auto center and reclaim my old battery so that I could ride home.

As I said, Duh.

Anyway, the acid's in and it's supposed to set a spell before being charged for 2-6 hrs and it's late, so I'll charge it tomorrow night and get it in there.

 

[TheCafeKid]

Good deal! Least you'll know if thats the problem in the end...i wouldnt be suprised to learn that it is..fingers crossed for ya bro!

 

[Roostabunny]

New Batt

New Batt

OK, the new battery is charged and installed. Initial tests were great.

Snappy, energetic cranking (like I've never heard before)
Meter readings:
12.6V across the terminals (not running)
13.4V across the terminals while running (about 3000rpm)

And it actually caught right on the first time at about 3/4 choke and no throttle, which is much better than the throttle tweaking I've had to do in the past. Tried it again today, and it didn't catch as easy - maybe need some practice to find that choke "sweet spot".

More testing to do - like the ride-for-5-off-for-5 short trip that has been messing me up. I guess I'll do an out-and-back the first time to make sure I don't get stranded again.

Anyway, prognosis looks good, but I'll post back here if I have further issues.

Thanks for the help!

 

[TheCafeKid]

OK, the new battery is charged and installed. Initial tests were great.

Snappy, energetic cranking (like I've never heard before)
Meter readings:
12.6V across the terminals (not running)
13.4V across the terminals while running (about 3000rpm)

And it actually caught right on the first time at about 3/4 choke and no throttle, which is much better than the throttle tweaking I've had to do in the past. Tried it again today, and it didn't catch as easy - maybe need some practice to find that choke "sweet spot".

More testing to do - like the ride-for-5-off-for-5 short trip that has been messing me up. I guess I'll do an out-and-back the first time to make sure I don't get stranded again.

Anyway, prognosis looks good, but I'll post back here if I have further issues.

Thanks for the help!

Mine Had a sweet spot too..but it shouldnt...i was flooding while sitting. Poor floatlevel adjustment. Checked the valve clearances recently? And maybe a lil more priming time next time?? Just thoughts..

 

[Roostabunny]

Mine Had a sweet spot too..but it shouldnt...i was flooding while sitting. Poor floatlevel adjustment. Checked the valve clearances recently? And maybe a lil more priming time next time?? Just thoughts..

OK first off - I realized right after that post that I was on reserve when I got home Friday, and gas stations on my way to work tomorrow don't open till after I leave. All that to say, I got to do my quick ride test just now "without a net" so to speak. I even forgot my cell phone.

All was OK, it cranked like a champ. It was like I had jumper cables hooked up. :-D Good to have a fully functional battery, I guess.

As for the choke, CafeKid, my tappet tool arrives in a couple of days, and valve clearences are on the list for this month, and I'll hopefully rebuild the carbs in the next moth or two, so we'll see.