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Running rich, I need some advice, please

  • Thread starter Thread starter gs450sjip
  • Start date Start date
gs450sjip said:
Gents,

I discovered an air leak on the right carb boot right at the carb to boot joint. Spraying carb cleaner changed engine speed noticeably. I replaced a split one months ago, now this one is not sealing. So, I just placed an order for a new one. The saga continues, but at least it's starting to make sense. gs450sjip stay tuned......
Click to expand...
That will cause a hanging idle.:)
 
hjfisk said:
That will cause a hanging idle.:)
Click to expand...

Latest update Gents,

I installed a new carb pipe and o-ring on the offending side. Surprisingly, there was no change, still sucks air in on the carb to boot joint on the outside edge of the carb. After examining the tight fit of these pieces, I wonder. Could it be leaking under the aluminum cap on the end of the throttle shaft? I know there is a seal of sorts in there, this is on the carb body I replaced, so I don't know the history of it. Still a hanging idle. Next test will be to put a hose over the casting on the throttle shaft, after removing the cap. Shoot carb cleaner in the hose to see if the leak is in the shaft seal or not. Personally, I don't see how it can leak at the boot to carb neck joint. It is soft, pliable, and tight fitting.

Advice appreciated, gs450sjip
 
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hjfisk said:
That will cause a hanging idle.:)
Click to expand...

Gents,
While I'm waiting for the throttle shaft seals to arrive, I have a related question:
Are there supposed to be internal seals on the bottom of the choke plunger? I ask because I don't recall seeing anything there, some photos show a small black area surrounding the protruding shaft on the bottom. Is this the cause of the richness I experience?

Thanks, gs450sjip
 
If you have lots of patience, go through my engine rebuild photos on Photobucket and see how mine compare with yours.

http://s594.photobucket.com/albums/tt26/starpoint73/GS450/Engine%20Rebuild/

I don't know what's going on with Photobucket but lately I just keep getting connection errors and timeouts and it's ridiculously painful to even view photos I've got there let alone upload new stuff.

They also appear to have re-ordered all my photos so you're just going to have to sift through... don't have time to go and find the individual ones for you I'm sorry.
 
pete said:
If you have lots of patience, go through my engine rebuild photos on Photobucket and see how mine compare with yours.

http://s594.photobucket.com/albums/tt26/starpoint73/GS450/Engine Rebuild/

I don't know what's going on with Photobucket but lately I just keep getting connection errors and timeouts and it's ridiculously painful to even view photos I've got there let alone upload new stuff.

They also appear to have re-ordered all my photos so you're just going to have to sift through... don't have time to go and find the individual ones for you I'm sorry.
Click to expand...

Pete,
I have reviewed your build earlier. I studied it well, thanks. I checked the chokes , they are sealing well. After replacing the throttle shaft seals, I am out of ideas. I hope this does it. Stay tuned....gs450sjip
 
pete said:
Good stuff, my fingers are crossed for you!
Click to expand...

Pete and all,

Here is the latest scenario:
Replaced the throttle shaft seals, set the pilot mix screws at 2 1/2 turns out, floats are set to 27mm. A small amount of Permatex was applied to the bead area on the carb neck before installing. One airbox boot was tattered so I replaced it with a good one. There are no air leaks now, I checked all over with carb cleaner while running, it is air tight. The choke pistons are sealing well, the linkage is not holding them open. That's the good.
It starts on a 38 degree F morning with no choke at all, immediately goes to 3800 RPM and stays there for a couple minutes them slowly drops to a normal idle speed of say 1200-1500 or so, but wants to die. When throttle is applied it hesitates, it does not run smoothly, it is still on the rich side, the plugs are black after running at 3800 rpm for 4 minutes. This is a very low throttle position (just off idle). It still wont idle on it's own, though I never really got it to operating temperature yet. It was difficult to restart unless I waited for a time, and had to use WOT to get it to fire. It has spark and fuel at this time.
There were two changes since the last running: it was made richer by turning the mix screws out 1/2 turn from 2-turns. The throttle seals and/or carb boot do not suck air.
I'm leaning toward turning the mix screws in to 1 turn out to see if there is a positive change.
I welcome any thoughts , ideas, advice.....Thanks, gs450sjip
 
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gs450sjip said:
Pete,

Please clarify the pilot jets on your bike. Were they originally with or without the side holes? I think some call them air bleeds. When you say too rich until you put the stock back in. I need cleared up on that, please. gs450sjip
Click to expand...

Pete, Koolaid Kid and others,

I've done this for a year now, and I have gotten the details mixed up a couple times. Here's the latest:

The original pilot jets did NOT have the holes on the side, the ones in there now, DO have the holes. They are both 17.5 size. It runs rich..period. The exhaust burns your eyes.
I do NOT need a choke to start it in 38 degree weather. It runs fast immediately for two minutes, then slowly drops to 1200-1500 rpm, but tries to stall. When throttle is applied it stutters, runs rough, sounds terrible. I did hear it "sound healthy" in earlier tests. It requires WOT to restart. All symptoms are "rich". The fuel level is at the lowest level within spec, the floats, float, the needle and seats are new Mikuni. Everything is where it should be, except for maybe the pilot jets...I swapped them earlier, with no discernible difference, but that was before all the other issues were corrected. The mixture screws are at 1/2 turn out. There are no air leaks anywhere.
Where do I go from here? Well, change to the original pilot jets without the holes, if that don't work...I have a "For Sale" sign...

Thanks for the guidance...gs450sjip
 
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I've been rereading this thread, and I noticed that (in this thread) there has been no talk of what's happening in the ignition system. I do know (from another thread) that you said you replaced the entire system with a Dynatek.

Question: did that include new coils or just the ignitor?

What kind of voltage are you currently getting at the coils? Has this changed since you acquired the motorcycle?

The pilot jets you have, are they both unmolested (i.e. not drilled out)?

Hopefully switching back to the hole-free jets will work for you. If not, it sounds to me like your problem MAY lie outside the carburetor.
 
Sorry, I thought at some point you'd gone back to the stock pilots... and yes you should definitely do that, or get the other style in a smaller size.
 
BigD_83 said:
I've been rereading this thread, and I noticed that (in this thread) there has been no talk of what's happening in the ignition system. I do know (from another thread) that you said you replaced the entire system with a Dynatek.

Question: did that include new coils or just the ignitor?

What kind of voltage are you currently getting at the coils? Has this changed since you acquired the motorcycle?

The pilot jets you have, are they both unmolested (i.e. not drilled out)?

Hopefully switching back to the hole-free jets will work for you. If not, it sounds to me like your problem MAY lie outside the carburetor.
Click to expand...

Big D,

A year ago, there was faults in the ignition and fuel systems, hence the long arduous task of sorting through it all. The complete Dynatek system is installed and cured the ignition side of it. Plenty of hot, reliable spark. I did perform the coil relay mod also. The alternator charges the system when running at a reliable rate also.
Thanks, GS450JIP

Pete,

As soon as I get a chance, I'll replace the holed pilot jets with the un-holed originals, they are unmolested. I'm hoping that will get it. It actually runs worse after I replaced the throttle shaft seals and sealed the offending intake boot (pipe). I must have richened it considerably doing those things. It ran smoother (leaner) before I sealed everything.
It makes me wonder what would others set the mix screws at if they replaced the throttle shaft seals first? Stay tuned, Gentlemen, I'm not giving up yet...
 
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Good stuff... from memory my mixture screws are somewhere around the 2 turns out mark... but I know my carbs are jetted too rich.
 
pete said:
Good stuff... from memory my mixture screws are somewhere around the 2 turns out mark... but I know my carbs are jetted too rich.
Click to expand...

Pete and all,

The clouds have lifted over Suzuki land ! I tried it yesterday at 7 degrees below freezing, Starts, idles with 1/2 choke, runs smoothly, very responsive....gee, only took a year. I haven't set the mix screws yet, it will wait till it's a little warmer here. They are at 1 1/2 turns out right now. I think I'm on the home stretch now, the rest is tuning. Swapping to the pilots with no holes did it along with careful positioning of the throttle blades. (Can't uncover the small transfer holes),

Thanks to all for helping ! Great forum. gs450sjip
 
Yeehaa! Glad to hear it :D

So the next step will be setting the mixture screws properly using the highest idle method, and also you'll want to do a proper vacuum carb sync.

One of those will likely affect the other, so you may need to revisit them another time or two, but you will definitely find it worthwhile.

Very glad to hear you're winning :D
 
pete said:
Yeehaa! Glad to hear it :D

So the next step will be setting the mixture screws properly using the highest idle method, and also you'll want to do a proper vacuum carb sync.

One of those will likely affect the other, so you may need to revisit them another time or two, but you will definitely find it worthwhile.

Very glad to hear you're winning :D
Click to expand...

Thanks! I really hated the thought of selling it as-is... I'm sure by Spring, I'll have it humming. I have to re-do the brake caliper, it sticks after setting for 3 decades. The tire are hard, etc..easy stuff. gs450sjip
 
pete said:
Yeehaa! Glad to hear it :D

So the next step will be setting the mixture screws properly using the highest idle method, and also you'll want to do a proper vacuum carb sync.

One of those will likely affect the other, so you may need to revisit them another time or two, but you will definitely find it worthwhile.

Very glad to hear you're winning :D
Click to expand...
Pete,

I haven't had much time to play with this after correcting the pilot jets, and it's been cold. I find it will idle between 1200-1400 smoothly, when the throttle is cracked open quickly, it responds well. However, all is not well, the choke needs to be on slightly, the mix screws were at 2 turns out. If it try to richen it by turning the screws to 2 1/2 turns, it runs rougher and I still need the choke on some. If it turn the mix screws in to 1 1/4 turn to 1 1/2 turn, it runs smoother and responds cleanly. Also needs the choke on a little. It is cold here, but I thought it was warmed enough to take it off the choke, maybe not? I'll play with it under warmer conditions and see Sunday afternoon. The motor seems to like leaner mix than richer on the pilot screws. I'm thinking because the throttle shaft bushings were so much tighter than the originals. Just guessing here.
gs450sjip
 
If I may interject here:
First, your main jets have no influence on the idle mixture screws. So Pete, you need to adjust your mains and leave your pilot circuit be.
Second, the fastest idle method does not work well with CV carbs. It works for the VM carbs. For CV carbs, you want to use this method: Setting Idle Mixture on CV Cabs
And you almost never need to change the pilot jets; they are almost always fine stock. I have a very radical GPz750/810, and the stock pilot jets are correct for it.
Once you have this done you can do the carb sync.
I have requested that this be posted on BassCliff's site, but he has not gotten around to it yet.

Best of luck.
 
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koolaid_kid said:
If I may interject here:
First, your main jets have no influence on the idle mixture screws. So Pete, you need to adjust your mains and leave your pilot circuit be.
Second, the fastest idle method does not work well with CV carbs. It works for the VM carbs. For CV carbs, you want to use this method: Setting Idle Mixture on CV Cabs
And you almost never need to change the pilot jets; they are almost always fine stock. I have a very radical GPz750/810, and the stock pilot jets are correct for it.
Once you have this done you can do the carb sync.
I have requested that this be posted on BassCliff's site, but he has not gotten around to it yet.

Best of luck.
Click to expand...

Koolaid Kid,
I have saved the article as I can not print it. I believe it may be still too cold to run without choke yet. It's supposed to be 70 degrees here Monday, I'll try then. All the jets in the carbs are unmolested originals (pilot jets). The mains are new Mikuni original size. The airbox and exhaust are complete originals. The floats are set correctly, new needles seats, all o-rings and boots are new. There are no air leaks anywhere. With that as a starting point, I believe it's just a matter of tuning now.
Thank you all for staying with me on this ! gs450sjip
 
O.K., best of luck.
BTW, bwringer and I did a cross-Indiana run in 40 degree weather this September and our bikes did not need the choke once they were warmed up (2-3 minutes).
Mine - 83 GPz 750/810 highly modified
His - 83 GS 850G completely stock
 
koolaid_kid said:
O.K., best of luck.
BTW, bwringer and I did a cross-Indiana run in 40 degree weather this September and our bikes did not need the choke once they were warmed up (2-3 minutes).
Mine - 83 GPz 750/810 highly modified
His - 83 GS 850G completely stock
Click to expand...

Koolaid Kid,

I tried to take the choke off but it wants to stall. It could still be too cold, or I need to do the mixture screw test. It does run cleaner with the screws at 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 turns out. At 2 to 2 1/2 turns, it burbles and generally runs rougher, does not rev cleanly. Much more testing and adjusting is needed. Once I get it to repeat in the tests, I'll post it.
I'll say this, when it runs at 1200-1400 rpm, with slight choke, it sounds and responds great! (at the lean pilot setting) gs450sjip
 
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