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Running rich, I need some advice, please

  • Thread starter Thread starter gs450sjip
  • Start date Start date
pete said:
Fingers crossed! And can you point me to the place on here that has them wrong? I'm guessing I've missed that along the way... would like to get it corrected as it's not the first time someone's had issues setting them right.
Click to expand...

Pete,

The link listed by Legionaire has the incorrect heights. I reset mine to 26.7mm last night. I also reset the mixture screws to 1 1/2 turns out. This morning when cold and 60 degrees F, it started with no choke, ran "better" but still not drivable. It burbles, it is still rich. I didn't have much time this morning to fiddle with it. Although it did "idle" for the first time in 11 months, even if it is still too fat. Last night I ran it at 3500-4500 rpm for a few minutes to try and color the plugs. After getting hot, it will not restart till it cools off. It has plenty of spark and fuel at that time. The float height change was the first thing that had a positive effect. It is stiil rough when it runs, and the plugs are still black (although the plug chop I'm doing may not be conclusive). I have never driven this bike, so I do the best I can in the garage for now. Any thoughts? Thank you all for contributing. gs450sjip
 
Assuming the float height is correct and there are no air restrictions, it is time to step down on your pilot jets. If you have a set of 15s I would install those. Keep the mixture screws where they are. "Supposedly" one step is worth 2 turns of the mixture screws (YMMV).
Glad to hear it at least starts and runs, even though it is still too rich. And no, you won't be able to ride it until you get this sorted out, unfortunately.
 
koolaid_kid said:
Assuming the float height is correct and there are no air restrictions, it is time to step down on your pilot jets. If you have a set of 15s I would install those. Keep the mixture screws where they are. "Supposedly" one step is worth 2 turns of the mixture screws (YMMV).
Glad to hear it at least starts and runs, even though it is still too rich. And no, you won't be able to ride it until you get this sorted out, unfortunately.
Click to expand...

koolaidkid..

Do you think I can turn the mixture screws in some to get a feel of leaning it out at the idle settings? Maybe 1/2 to 3/4 turn out, just to see?
The 17.5 are what came from the factory. It seems that if I can turn the mix screws in until the bike won't even run, the pilot size shouldn't be too far out. I beleive with the fuel level too high as it was before, it ran no matter where the mix screws were set at. It should be leaner now with the lower fuel level. Another test might be to remove the foam air filter and airbox lid...just to see what happens. What do you think? gs450sjip
 
Thanks for the link to the problematic info guys, I'll shoot a PM off to BassCliff to get it corrected... interestingly though there are no years marked against those entries so this could be interesting...

And back on topic... how oiled is your air filter? If it's too wet with oil it could cause it to run rich... probably not the issue but worth a thought maybe...
 
Although it should be correct at 2 1/2 turns out and need the choke to start, you can go down to 1/2 turns out and still run the engine. Any more than that and you have effectively removed the circuit from the equation.
Removing the lid will lean it out, as will removing the filter. But keep in mind you are creating an artificial situation to mask the actual issue(s).
You can also adjust your float height to minimize the fuel level and be perfectly legitimate.
 
koolaid_kid said:
Although it should be correct at 2 1/2 turns out and need the choke to start, you can go down to 1/2 turns out and still run the engine. Any more than that and you have effectively removed the circuit from the equation.
Removing the lid will lean it out, as will removing the filter. But keep in mind you are creating an artificial situation to mask the actual issue(s).
You can also adjust your float height to minimize the fuel level and be perfectly legitimate.
Click to expand...

KOOLAID KID,

I was only suggesting the removal of air filter components to confirm or deny it is in fact running "rich" and not suffering from something else. It is not the solution, I agree. According to the factory spec on float height, I can go another .030 inch. I don't know how much difference that would make? One thing I failed to mention was I can not remove the mixture screws once unscrewed. The o-ring is keeping them in the body even when loose. I screwed them back in of course. It is a long way from using 2 1/2 turns out and need the choke to start..a long way. I can't figure why it won't restart after reaching operating temperature. I checked for fuel and spark when that happens, all is well. Maybe it's just too rich?? gs450sjip
 
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pete said:
Thanks for the link to the problematic info guys, I'll shoot a PM off to BassCliff to get it corrected... interestingly though there are no years marked against those entries so this could be interesting...

And back on topic... how oiled is your air filter? If it's too wet with oil it could cause it to run rich... probably not the issue but worth a thought maybe...
Click to expand...
Pete,

The filter is oiled but squeezed until only "damp" with oil. I was going to remove it..just to see

This is really a trying test, this S model is from the original family, complete with service records, bill of sale from the dealer, everything. I really am anxious to drive it!
 
OK just a shot in the dark here but are the enrichener's closing up completely?. I have had this happen in the past. They sometimes appear to be closing but not completely.
 
gs450sjip said:
KOOLAID KID,

I was only suggesting the removal of air filter components to confirm or deny it is in fact running "rich" and not suffering from something else. It is not the solution, I agree. According to the factory spec on float height, I can go another .030 inch. I don't know how much difference that would make? One thing I failed to mention was I can not remove the mixture screws once unscrewed. The o-ring is keeping them in the body even when loose. I screwed them back in of course. It is a long way from using 2 1/2 turns out and need the choke to start..a long way. I can't figure why it won't restart after reaching operating temperature. I checked for fuel and spark when that happens, all is well. Maybe it's just too rich?? gs450sjip
Click to expand...
Don't worry, we are on the same page. Changing the float level will make a difference, and the cost is time only, no money. And you will still be within spec.
I thought you dipped these carbs, am I remembering incorrectly?
To remove the screws, use a really thin pair of needle nose pliers. I have a pair you can borrow if you want to come over and pick them up. ;);)
It would be really interesting to see the tips of those screws. Just imagine if the tips were broken off; you would have exactly the performance you are witnessing.
Neither one of the events you are witnessing makes any sense at all. First and foremost, why in the world is it so rich with the stock pilot jets installed? And why won't it restart when warmed up? Possibly related to the first, but you won't know until you solve the first one.
 
hjfisk said:
OK just a shot in the dark here but are the enrichener's closing up completely?. I have had this happen in the past. They sometimes appear to be closing but not completely.
Click to expand...
How could you tell they were not closing completely, and what did you do to solve the issue? Any suggestions would be welcome at this point.
 
hjfisk said:
OK just a shot in the dark here but are the enrichener's closing up completely?. I have had this happen in the past. They sometimes appear to be closing but not completely.
Click to expand...

HJFISK,

That did enter my mind. I tried pushing down on the rod when "off" just to see if they move any, they don't seem to. The carb diagram does not show any o-rings or seals on the enrichener other than the gasket that I can see. The lever does not hang up when operated. When I use the enrichener when it just starts up, it will kill the motor. gs450sjip
 
koolaid_kid said:
Don't worry, we are on the same page. Changing the float level will make a difference, and the cost is time only, no money. And you will still be within spec.
I thought you dipped these carbs, am I remembering incorrectly?
To remove the screws, use a really thin pair of needle nose pliers. I have a pair you can borrow if you want to come over and pick them up. ;);)
It would be really interesting to see the tips of those screws. Just imagine if the tips were broken off; you would have exactly the performance you are witnessing.
Neither one of the events you are witnessing makes any sense at all. First and foremost, why in the world is it so rich with the stock pilot jets installed? And why won't it restart when warmed up? Possibly related to the first, but you won't know until you solve the first one.
Click to expand...
koolaidkid,

No, it doesn't make sense. The carbs were dipped in Berrymans carb cleaner, then aerosol carb cleaner in the passages, then air compressor. I think the restart when hot problem is from the richness. It will restart when cold. I will raise the float height another .030 in. and try to remove the mix screws. btw, I drilled the plugs out on the mix screws, no issues with that. Thanks gs450sjip
 
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I just pushed on the rod a little and realized that with the plungers were still hanging on the little fork things in the closed position, so I tweaked them a little so the rod had a little movement from closed position until they started to open[ freeplay if you will]between the forks and the plungers. just a thought. . It really doesn't take much to make it run rich off this circuit. if it hangs just a hair open is enough to miss things up. Also how are the ends of the plungers are the still in good shape where they seal to the carb body?
 
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hjfisk said:
I just pushed on the rod a little and realized that with the plungers were still hanging on the little fork things in the closed position, so I tweaked them a little so the rod had a little movement from closed position until they started to open[ freeplay if you will]between the forks and the plungers. just a thought. . It really doesn't take much to make it run rich off this circuit. if it hangs just a hair open is enough to miss things up. Also how are the ends of the plungers are the still in good shape where they seal to the carb body?
Click to expand...
hjfisk,

I didn't notice anything when I cleaned them. There is a spring on the assembly, I would think that applied pressure to seal them, even with a little freeplay. I did not examine them that closely when they were apart. I'll look again. gs450sjip
 
gs450sjip said:
hjfisk,

I didn't notice anything when I cleaned them. There is a spring on the assembly, I would think that applied pressure to seal them, even with a little freeplay. I did not examine them that closely when they were apart. I'll look again. gs450sjip
Click to expand...
The spring will close them completely , if the linkage rod is not holding them open a little. Just look and see if there is some free space at the end of the plunger where the little fork goes into the notch on the rod. If it is in contact with the plunger in the closed position it may be holding it open. :)
 
From reading through this post what ever the problem it is going to be something simple that is getting over looked I believe
 
hjfisk said:
From reading through this post what ever the problem it is going to be something simple that is getting over looked I believe
Click to expand...
I cannot disagree. gs450sjip has done everything by the book as far as I can tell. Something very fundamental is going on here, it will be discovered. Most likely followed by a slap to the head and a "Doh!". ;)
 
hjfisk said:
From reading through this post what ever the problem it is going to be something simple that is getting over looked I believe
Click to expand...

I really hope you're right! I have been messing with this stuff for decades and I don't remember a more challenging one than this. I will look for freeplay on the starter plunger rod/fork. Thanks! gs450sjip
 
pete said:
Welcome!

George is spot on with the pilots.

When attempting to jet mine originally I could only get the ones with the holes in the sides, always too rich no matter what I did. Went back to stock and they're ok, my richness is due to my mains and needles but that's a different story.

With your float height, did you set it as per the Clymer manual? If so, it's actually incorrect for the 80 - 82 models and should be 26.6mm +/- 1mm.

Also, you say you have a Dyna ignition, is that the DS3-3C kit? If so, how does it go? I'm loving mine...
Click to expand...
Pete,

Please clarify the pilot jets on your bike. Were they originally with or without the side holes? I think some call them air bleeds. When you say too rich until you put the stock back in. I need cleared up on that, please. gs450sjip
 
gs450sjip said:
Pete,

Please clarify the pilot jets on your bike. Were they originally with or without the side holes? I think some call them air bleeds. When you say too rich until you put the stock back in. I need cleared up on that, please. gs450sjip
Click to expand...
You can't go by what was on his bike, you have to go by what is on yours.

He has a bike that was sold in a different world market, the jetting might have been a bit different over there ("Down Under").

If YOUR pilot jets had holes, you need to replace them with pilot jets with holes, but why are you replacing them in the first place? Stock ones work quite well, until you install a big-bore kit and extra-lumpy cams, along with a race header and pods.

.
 
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