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soldering aluminum to copper???

  • Thread starter Thread starter crc1214
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crc1214

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Sometimes I question my sanity when I think about how many hours I've spent wrenching on bikes, and I REALLY question my sanity when I think of all the time I've spent sorting out electrical issues....... nuff said.....

Anyhow - I got a used Honda reg/rect for my bike, and to my absolute astonishment all the wires coming out of it are silver in color, so I'm thinking could this possibly be aluminum?

If it is - can I solder these aluminum wires to the copper wires currently on my bike? From what I have found on the internet, it's pretty much a no-no. Anyone ever done it with success though?

Good news is that I have a wonderful relationship with the shop I picked the unit up at, so exchanging it will not be a problem.

Thanks, Chad
 
They must be steel, or nickel I guess. I don't think wiring is ever aluminium, is it?
 
Just asked my electrical engineer friend. He says copper to aluminum won't be a problem at all.
 
Jethro said:
They must be steel, or nickel I guess. I don't think wiring is ever aluminium, is it?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure GM uses aluminum for a lot of their vehicles. It's cheaper, but more susceptible to corrosion (especially in coastal regions).
 
the power lines coming into your house are probably aluminum. From what I know about that, aluminum and copper don't really like each other, and need a special flux to prevent corrosion
 
Ive tried soldering copper wire to alum connectors and sometimes it doesnt work. I would use some flux paste, that may help you out a bit.
 
spots25 said:
the power lines coming into your house are probably aluminum. From what I know about that, aluminum and copper don't really like each other, and need a special flux to prevent corrosion
Click to expand...

Those lines are carrying a lot more current than R/R wiring. They're also much larger. It's true for those large connections that you need special connectors and fittings. The trick to soldering a copper wire to an aluminum wire is making sure both wires are hot enough to draw the solder. The aluminum will heat up faster than the copper. If the copper isn't hot enough, all of the solder will draw to the aluminum and none to the copper. Your resulting connection will simply pull apart. My friend tells me the best way to do it is to mesh the strands together into a kind of weave, apply heat to the bottom of the wire for a few seconds, then apply the solder to the top of the wire when the connection is hot enough.
 
Most likely the "silver colored" wires are tinned copper. They will solder just fine. Aluminum will not take solder.
 
mixongw said:
Most likely the "silver colored" wires are tinned copper. They will solder just fine. Aluminum will not take solder.
Click to expand...

Exactly, they are tinned , solder will work just fine.
 
Well I'll be damned, they are tinned copper! I just happened to bring the unit w/me to work today, and I put the strands under a microscope. Copper inner core. I'm going to solder it up tonight.

Thanks everyone.

Chad
 
spots25 said:
the power lines coming into your house are probably aluminum. From what I know about that, aluminum and copper don't really like each other, and need a special flux to prevent corrosion
Click to expand...

If you have aluminum wires in your house then it is S T R O N G L Y
recommended that you open every receptacle/switch/light or anything else.
Loosen every single connector in the house and coat each wire end with an oxygen-blocking paste. Then reassemble, and be sure to use a considerable amount of pressure when tightening the bolts/screws/connectors.


The reason is that aluminum has a very bad habit of oxidizing over a fairly brief time, and as it does the oxide coating builds resistance, as well as space between the wire itself and the connecting plate/bolt. That leads to arcing.....which leads to blown fuses at a minimum, but may cause fire.


Been there, Done that.

Note also, aluminum and copper wires are not equal in current carrying capacity.

I do not recall the formula, but as a simple rule, where you would need 14 gauge copper wire in your house, (as in a 15 amp circuit,) if using aluminum , you must use 12 gauge wire for that circuit, Aluminum will overheat if you use 14 gauge wire.
 
argonsagas said:
If you have aluminum wires in your house then it is S T R O N G L Y
recommended that you open every receptacle/switch/light or anything else.
Loosen every single connector in the house and coat each wire end with an oxygen-blocking paste. Then reassemble, and be sure to use a considerable amount of pressure when tightening the bolts/screws/connectors.


The reason is that aluminum has a very bad habit of oxidizing over a fairly brief time, and as it does the oxide coating builds resistance, as well as space between the wire itself and the connecting plate/bolt. That leads to arcing.....which leads to blown fuses at a minimum, but may cause fire.


Been there, Done that.

Note also, aluminum and copper wires are not equal in current carrying capacity.

I do not recall the formula, but as a simple rule, where you would need 14 gauge copper wire in your house, (as in a 15 amp circuit,) if using aluminum , you must use 12 gauge wire for that circuit, Aluminum will overheat if you use 14 gauge wire.
Click to expand...

Not to get off of the topic, but I think spots25 was referring to the main lines coming into the house from the service and not the house wiring from the breaker panel to the outlets. I don't think you can find aluminum wiring that's approved for internal residential wiring anymore, but if your house was built in the '70s you might have an issue.
 
smithbm said:
Not to get off of the topic, but I think spots25 was referring to the main lines coming into the house from the service and not the house wiring from the breaker panel to the outlets. I don't think you can find aluminum wiring that's approved for internal residential wiring anymore, but if your house was built in the '70s you might have an issue.
Click to expand...

yeah, i was referring to the main lines, we've got them pasted up really well :D
 
Soldered wires are suseptable to breakage in high vibration environments. Soldered wire connections are NOT approved for use in aircraft or the marine industry.
Crimp connectors are approved. I do not use soldered connections on a motorcycle.

Earl
 
earlfor said:
Soldered wires are suseptable to breakage in high vibration environments. Soldered wire connections are NOT approved for use in aircraft or the marine industry.
Crimp connectors are approved. I do not use soldered connections on a motorcycle.

Earl
Click to expand...

I hadn't heard of this before, and my curiousity was aroused. I wanted to find out more, and found out that there is a very controversial solder vs. crimp debate. As far as I can tell, solder can be used in both aircraft and marine applications. If not , maybe somebody should tell Soldering Tool Kit for Aircraft.

Astro-Geo-Marine uses solder certified assemblers for their electronic power products in the military, aircraft, and aerospace industries.

Robb Zuc has put together a well documented Marine Electrical Check List. In the connections section it states that soldered joints must be first mechanically connected (twisted, crimped or bolted) before soldering. Connections held by solder alone will fracture. Most crimped connections are subject to failure in a marine environment if they are not soldered together (probably for the same reason they fail on motorcycles, corrosion). I don't think anyone is soldering wires together on a motorcycle without making a mechanical connection by at least twisting the wires together first.

After reading some expert opinions, this is my take. A perfectly executed crimp with a precision tool is likely to make a good joint. An imperfectly executed crimp with the commonly available cheap tools and connectors is subject to failure from oxidation corrosion. It takes more knowledge and practice to make a good solder joint, but it is reliable if mechanically joined and soldered properly. Probably the best fail-safe method is to crimp the joint and then solder it. Even a relatively poor crimp with air gaps will be mechanically strong enough to resist vibration and the solder will seal the air gaps and prevent corrosion.
 
earlfor said:
Soldered wires are suseptable to breakage in high vibration environments. Soldered wire connections are NOT approved for use in aircraft or the marine industry.
Crimp connectors are approved. I do not use soldered connections on a motorcycle.

Earl
Click to expand...

I normally use crimp connections as well, however most of the threads I have read through insist that R/Rs be soldered and shrink wrapped. Is this correct?
 
You know, I heard the same thing regarding soldering - a lot of boat guys absolutely WILL NOT do it. They would rather use crimp connectors.

A lot of boat forums (this link is from a Jeep forum though) recommend using these........

http://thejeep.com/posi-lock/

I gotta tell you - I may be swayed into using them. I was very surprised to read that they are actually used as OEM equipment on some connections on newer Saab cars.

Right now I've got the replacement R/R mocked up on the bike using wire nuts so I could just test it out. Some drama there. I'll start another post to explain.

Chad
 
The problem with soldered joints is that where the solder adheres, the wire is changed from being stranded and flexible to being solid and rigid. It takes much more flexing of a stranded wire to cause fracture than it does in a solid wire. Its true that corrosion is the biggest problem with crimp connectors and that is solved in marine applications by sealing the connectors with electrolytic grease. Soldering the wire after crimping a connector voids the reason for crimping as the wire exiting the crimp will be solid. The crimp will hold, but the wire will break. In 30 years of making various repairs on high end yachts, none that I can remember used soldered connections and none of the companies I worked for permitted their use. I was also involved in an EAA chapter and of maybe 20 aircraft I had personal experience with, none of them were built using soldered electrical systems. I would simply twist the wires together and put heat shrink tubing over the splice before I would use a soldered joint. I have seen fractured soldered wire connections. I've never seen a wire broken off of a crimp connector due to vibration. For corrosion protection, a little grease will work fine. Connections can be greased and then have heat shrink applied over it to seal the grease and connection.

Yep, they make a crimp connector for any application you can imagine. :-)

Earl
 
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