Something's gone Haywire (starter ?)

[bonanzadave]

Rode home 20 mins in a pretty good downpour. Got home and thought what better time to giver the old soap and water bath. It "was" running while I washed it, but then quite, so I pushed it into the garage. 2 days later the battery was nearly dead or at least it would hardly turn over. Charged the battery - same thing - hardly turned over - then not at all. Jumped it from my truck - Yes, power to the starter - but nothing but the solenoid click. ?????? Orig 1982 starter.

Thoughts......

 

[Redman]

...
Thoughts......

- possibly battery really not well charged, or possibly battery old-weak-failing. Both can be determined by measuring battery voltage before and during cranking (or click-not-crank)

- if battery is good and is well charged, then click-but-not-crank sounds like starter problem.

- for rebuilt starter or rebuild-brush kit, I suggest you look at Stocker Starters.
http://www.stockers.com/index.php?ct=Motorcycle/Scooter

- also, maybe, take a look at the battery negative cable connection on the back of the engine. Maybe just loosen the bolt, so can inspect the connection to see if "corrosion". Is kinda difficult to get to, but worth looking at.

RedmanDave

.

 

[bonanzadave]

battery negative cable connection on the back of the engine. Is kinda difficult to get to, but worth looking at.

RedmanDave.

Thanks Dave. If you use a long extension for your 10mm socket you can get that bolt straight down behind the carbs. Easy (Tank removed).

Disconnected the battery and went straight from my truck to the Bikes battery cables - Same thing - Not the battery.

Pulled the plugs and pushed the bike in gear - not locked up.

Pulled the stator/start clutch cover and removed the gear set between the starter and clutch. Starter spins freely.

Hit the start button (clutch lever in) and spun the starter gear with my fingers - Every once or twice around it catches and spins briefly.

I think I need a starter or need to rebuild this one.

Any good tutorials on this subject ? Bikecliff ?

 

[Brendan W]

Rode home 20 mins in a pretty good downpour. Got home and thought what better time to giver the old soap and water bath. It "was" running while I washed it, but then quite, so I pushed it into the garage. 2 days later the battery was nearly dead or at least it would hardly turn over. Charged the battery - same thing - hardly turned over - then not at all. Jumped it from my truck - Yes, power to the starter - but nothing but the solenoid click. ?????? Orig 1982 starter.

Thoughts......

So I'm thinking which was it?
Did you check the voltage after charge and during attempted cranking.
When you jumped to the bike battery cables you are still depending on that cable back from the case being in good order.
Did you try take the truck ground to the case and bypass that cable altogether.

 

[bonanzadave]

Did you check the voltage after charge and during attempted cranking.

Completely different battery - no diff.

When you jumped to the bike battery cables you are still depending on that cable back from the case being in good order.

True. Then I went to the engine with the neg and direct to the starter post with the pos. Same thing.....no diff

Did you try take the truck ground to the case and bypass that cable altogether.

Yes

Found this.....

Had exactly the same symptoms. Battery was good, solenoid went click. Tested that there was full voltage from the terminal on the starter motor to earth with the starter button pushed. Removed and disassembled the starter motor. Cleaned the commutator with 600 grit wet and dry to bright copper, dressed the brushes with a fine half round file, flushed the commutator with solvent and blew it all dry. Reassembled and problem solved.

 

[Brendan W]

Yeah my starter was in bad condition. Mainly due to some misguided rebuild.
Cleaning is under-rated, lost art.
Download starter 2.4 on your phone

 

[Redman]

One option are to get a rebuilt starter, which is the higher cost option, (~150 bucks, guess) but easier.

Other option is to replace the brushes (~20 bucks) (more work) (maybe not entire problem) like I did in 2008 and has been fine since.
http://s6.photobucket.com/user/RedMan52/library/2008_Aug_starter?sort=2&page=1
here are some misc pics of when I rebuilt the comutator and installed a brush kit.
My brushes were worn down to about where the wire connects, so was about no spring pressure left to held them in place against the commutator bars. THe brushes were a pile of black dust, that fell out when opened it up.

First thing need to do is remove starter, or somehow look at back end of the motor to see if Mitsuba ( 4 brush) or Nippon Denso (2 brush) starter to get the proper kit. Any bike of pretty much any year or any model could have either/or the Mitsuba or the Denso.

I cleaned up the communtor bars by glueing emery paper to a couple paint stick and use them kinda like a file while spinning the motor armature in a drill motor. That is the cleaned up one where looks more like copper. THe original looked almost black.I just scratched out a bit of the insulation between the bars with the edge of a small screw driver.
To get it all back together with the new brushes and springs in place, I held the brushes back against the springs with tiewraps untill got the the armature and all back in place.t

I am not that much of a mechanic, am not a gearhead at all, and I did it. Although I had seen electricians and machinist do about the same thing on 100 megawatt generators (from the early 1950s).

 

[bonanzadave]

Got it. Removal, disassembly, clean, reassemble, install, test, .
'
3 hrs. Left the carbs in. I can post up the tools and procedure (with pics !!) but right now I'm going for a ride.......

 

[bonanzadave]

Back from the ride. Got a Crowler from the local brew pub and some burgers for the grill

 

[bonanzadave]

Heres how I removed, cleaned, and reinstalled the starter without removing the carbs.

If you remove the stator/start clutch cover for inspection plan ahead and get a new cover gasket.

Remove the starter cover. Best to have a 8mm socket,swivel,and a long 1/4 extension on your ratchet. Once the two 8mm bolts are out remove the cover.

Remove the starter cable with a 10mm wrench.

Switch to a 10mm socket for the 2 starter bolts. I put the socket on the bolt with a short extension and a swivel. This was mostly by feel. Then, from above the carbs, attach the long extension and ratchet. Remove the two starter mounting bolts.

 

[bonanzadave]

Once you get the two bolts out remove the starter by rocking and pushing toward the center of the bike. once the geared shaft pops through work the starter up and out of the well.

 

[bonanzadave]

The plastic connector you see is for the oil pressure. Make sure it, and the oil temp wire, are routed through the opening in the well. Dont let these wires interfere with the re-installation of the starter.

 

[bonanzadave]

Take note or make physical marks on the endcaps and housing so when it comes time to reassemble you wont be scratching your head. Pull the two long phillips screws out of the starter and separate the end caps from the housing.

 

[bonanzadave]

Inspect the brushes and replace if necessary.

 

[bonanzadave]

Now start cleaning. I used WD-40 and spray electrical cleaner and several rags. Ran some 400grit paper over the copper com bar, armatures, and old brushes.

 

[bonanzadave]

I applied a little grease to the bearing and the shaft on the other end.

 

[bonanzadave]

There are some specific notches on the housing that need to line up with cutouts on the end cap and brush plate in order to reassemble. once you have that alignment put the two long screws back in.

 

[bonanzadave]

I tested it after that. 12vdc to the post and touch the starter case to the side stand.

 

[Grimly]

The only starter trouble I've had so far has been years of carbon dust being sticky with oily fumes and slowly sticking the brushes in place. Two like that, but the last one, even though it's got a fair bit of life left in it, really needs a new pair of brushes for the next 35 years.
Really must get around to ordering the repair kit, as I like to have a spare ready to go.

 

[bonanzadave]

Clean the starter well and then work the starter back from whence it came. Apply some grease to the oring to make sure it goes back in with the oring where it needs to be. Put the two bolts back in the mounting holes. Again mostly by feel.

Put the 10mm socket and short extension and swivel on a bolt. Then from above the carbs attach the long extension and tighten the bolts.