Starter circuit problem URGENT

[Counterpoint]

Hi guys/girls

Putting the bike back together during a resto project and i've run into a problem...

I've picked up that theres a short in the starter circuit. The most i've been able to figure out so far is that the Yellow/green wire that feeds the +signal to the starter solinoid is earthing somewhere when the starter button is depressed. This has to be the problem?

I've check back to the starter button and the kill switch and the problem comes from befor them both. (back to the fuse box?)

Any ideas where else the signal comes from befor the controls or is there a common issue i've missed?

Hope this makes sense to someone out there.

Please help me!

Cheers Anthony

 

[koolaid_kid]

Counterpoint, please go to User CP (upper left menu item) and put your bike info in your signature. We really can't be totally helpful until we know which wiring diagram to look at.
Let us know.

 

[Redman]

Something is strange with your comments.
If the "earthing" was "before" the starter button and the kill swtich, it would be there all the time without you pressing the starter button. But you say it "earths" when you push the starter button.

Is the problem that you blow fuse when you push the starter button? And it does it with the solenoid disconnected?
I would suspect a probelm in the starter button itself. You can get at that by taking the handlebar control unit apart (come in half, take out the two screws).

Oh, what model, what year?

.

 

[Redman]

Oh,

Also, depending on what model / year: inbetween the starter button and the starter solenoid is the "disconnect switch" on the clutch. Those have been known to fail such that they short to ground, er, um , I mean, they earth. That you can find under the clutch lever. Can take the little cover off of it. Be prepared for little parts to fall out and bounce away. Maybe spinn the entire clutch lever assembly around so it is upside down and then take that little cover off.

Some times the contacts in the switch wear to where the contacts come apart and the pieces short to ground. (this also can happen on the brake light switches, similar design).

Or, as a test, disconnect the clutch switch and jumper it out.

I will check back in with you tommorow evening (USA time).

 

[Counterpoint]

Sorry guys, its an 82 gs850g.

Redman: when the starter button is pressed it completes the already shorting circuit sending the negative signal through to the solinoid signal wire.

And no fuses blow.

 

[posplayr]

Hi guys/girls

Putting the bike back together during a resto project and i've run into a problem...

I've picked up that theres a short in the starter circuit. The most i've been able to figure out so far is that the Yellow/green wire that feeds the +signal to the starter solinoid is earthing somewhere when the starter button is depressed. This has to be the problem?

I've check back to the starter button and the kill switch and the problem comes from befor them both. (back to the fuse box?)

Any ideas where else the signal comes from befor the controls or is there a common issue i've missed?

Hope this makes sense to someone out there.

Please help me!

Cheers Anthony

I don't really understand your explanation but there is a semi common and somewhat paradoxical issue that is the solenoid needs to be grounded.

Check for a ring lung connected to one of the solenoid mounting bolts with a black/while wire.

 

[Counterpoint]

Thanks for the input posplayr. The solinoid is definatly grounded.

 

[Redman]

...
... when the starter button is pressed it completes the already shorting circuit sending the negative signal through to the solinoid signal wire.
....
....

CP,

That is not consistent with my experience.
That is not consistent schematics I have (for 80 GS850G and 82 GS1100G).

Looking at schematic for 82 GS850G,
Schematic for starter solenoid.
12vdc+ From fuse to (orange) Kill swtich.
Kill Switch to (org/wht inside control unit) starter button (also goes to ignition module).
Starter button to (grn/yel) clutch swiitch.
Clutch Switch to (anoter grn/yell) to starter solenoid.

And, so then, any earthing (grounding, shortinig) anywere along that circuit should blow a fuse (when kill wi on, or button pushed, or when cluch swithc made up).


And starter solenoid doesnt have a ground wire, just its mounting to battery box is suppose to be the ground, and so battery box needs to be grounded (sometimes the battery box itself is not well grounded by its mounting and needs ground wire from wiring harness and sometimes that wire from wiring harness gets damaged then end up with solenoid not actaully grounded well. This prblem can also effect the ability of the R/R to regulate.)

I have emailed you a couple schematics of similare models.

Tell us more what you find.

Will check back in this evening.

.

 

[Redman]

Oh, You never really did state what the problem was.

.

 

[Counterpoint]

Thanks for all the info Redman.

The problem is that somewhere in the starter circuit there is a dead short that i can't find. The doesn't allow the bike to turn over as the solenoid does not activate and instead of a fuse blowing my wiring is getting hot. (consistent with a short)

I'll check it all again in the morning and post with any new findings.

 

[Redman]

...
....
The problem is that somewhere in the starter circuit there is a dead short that i can't find.
....

All the time?
Or just when have kill switch in run position?
Or not till push starter button?
Or not till pull in clutch?
Again, power goes to kill switch, then to starter button, then to clutch switch then to solenoid.

Strange that drawing enough current to heat up wire but not blowing fuse (but that is another problem aside from why it doesnt run the starter.)

.

 

[posplayr]

Thanks for all the info Redman.

The problem is that somewhere in the starter circuit there is a dead short that i can't find. The doesn't allow the bike to turn over as the solenoid does not activate and instead of a fuse blowing my wiring is getting hot. (consistent with a short)

I'll check it all again in the morning and post with any new findings.

what wire is getting hot?

 

[Counterpoint]

The short occurs only when the starter button is depressed with the kill switch set to on. Clutch doesnt effect the problem at all. So the problem has to be in the kill switch or earlier (back towards the fuse).

The positive battey terminal wire gets the hottest.

Im seriously considering just re-wiring the whole starter circuit.

 

[posplayr]

The short occurs only when the starter button is depressed with the kill switch set to on. Clutch doesnt effect the problem at all. So the problem has to be in the kill switch or earlier (back towards the fuse).

The positive battey terminal wire gets the hottest.

Im seriously considering just re-wiring the whole starter circuit.

If the positive battery terminal is getting hot then it appears that you have a starter problem.

Current is flowing to the starter but the starter is not turning over.

Either the starter is shorted or it is mechanically locked. I would pull the starter but just to make your self more comfortable, pull the starter side of the main battery cable and see if it still gets hot. It should not which means teh starter is bad.

 

[Counterpoint]

If i run the starter direct off the battery there is no problem. The starter has been recently rebuilt and is in perfect working order.

I know the problem is a short because with a mulitmeter i get a connection from both the positive circuit and earth circuit through the starter solinoid singal wire when the start button is depressed.

 

[posplayr]

If i run the starter direct off the battery there is no problem. The starter has been recently rebuilt and is in perfect working order.

I know the problem is a short because with a mulitmeter i get a connection from both the positive circuit and earth circuit through the starter solinoid singal wire when the start button is depressed.

Sorry, you are still not making any sense. A multi meter has multiple settings . Cant tell if you are measuring resistance or voltage? Also dont know what positive circuit or earth circuit is because as the name implies "circuit" you need both.

If the starter is good, It sounds like there is some thing wrong with the solenoid.

Have you tried a screw driver across the top of the solenoid? to short from battery (+) to starter (+)?

 

[Counterpoint]

Multimeter was set to test resistance and shows that both positive and negative are shorting in the same circuit which is only meant to meet the earth at the solenoid to activate it (solenoid works 100%) and at the starter motor.

I worded that positive/earth circuit badly sorry.

Its a brand new solenoid and shorting the solenoid does fix the problem (momentarily) as there is no earth signal being sent through to the solenoid signal wire.

 

[posplayr]

Multimeter was set to test resistance and shows that both positive and negative are shorting in the same circuit which is only meant to meet the earth at the solenoid to activate it (solenoid works 100%) and at the starter motor.

I worded that positive/earth circuit badly sorry.

Its a brand new solenoid and shorting the solenoid does fix the problem (momentarily) as there is no earth signal being sent through to the solenoid signal wire.

A few questions?

1. So when you shorted across the two large terminals on the solenoid, the starter turns over?
2. You have a new solenoid?
3. Your main cable from the battery to the solenoid gets hot when you push the start button but the starter does not crank?

This doesnt make much sense if you answer yes to all of the above.

I should mention that the way a solenoid works is that the electromagnet, that causes the main shorting bar to close, (that shorts between the main terminals) closes when the green/yellow wire is powered with +12V. The current flows through the solenoid coil and requires the negative side of the coil is grounded (by the frame) to provide the current return path.

Another point is that you have to be very careful doing resistance tests when there is a battery connected to the circuit. Generally you can't do a resistance test if there is voltage present.

 

[Counterpoint]

Yes to all of your questions, no battery we connected and im aware of how a solenoid works. This is why i posted for help because it doesnt add up...

 

[Redman]

...
.....
.....there is no earth signal being sent through to the solenoid signal wire.

...
....
....This is why i posted for help because it doesnt add up...

No polite way to say this: but, yes, it doesnt all add up .... what you are saying doesnt make sense.


Your statements about it should be "sending an earth signal to the soleniod" does not make any sence because that is not how it is suppose to work. (and the confusion not because because of calling it "earth" verses "negitive" verses "ground").
Is going to be difficult to determine what is abnormal, if you dont understand what is normal.

It will be hard to determine what is not working properly if you do not understand how it IS suppose to work.
I will repeat what I have stated before twice, but say it differently.
It is suppose to work this way:
Fuse puts power+ to the kill switch.
Then Kill switch puts power+ to the starter button (and the ignition).
Then Starter button puts power+ to the clutch swtich.
Then Clutch switch puts power+ to the solenoid.
The solenoid itself is mounted to the battery box which IS the ground-earth-negitive connection to the battery negitive (this requires that the battery box is in fact well grounded, which sometimes it is not and can be a problem, but not the problem you describe).

(I am assuming you have stock wiring. And if its not stock wiring, it is at least a negitive ground system.
Only positive ground system I have ever seen was on british & sweedisch & german cars from 50-60-70 years ago).

I think your bike had two problem that need to be investigated:
- why it draws high amps (heats up the wire, you say) but does not pull in the solenoid
and
- why the high amps doesnt blow the fuse.

Lets start with the high amps and solenoid not pulling in.
One way to troubleshoot a short circuit to ground (or other ecxessive high current) is to start at the intended load, the solenoid in this case, and dissconnect things one at a time, working your way back to the power source.
So, Disconnect the wire to the solenoid and hit the button (clutch swtich, ignition switch and all that) see if the high amps goes away, if it does go away it was the solenoid itself that was drawing all the amps.
If the amps dont go away, then you know it is something else along the way such as a short circuit to ground somewhere along the wiring or at one of the devices. So then go back to the clutch switch and disconnect that ... ... .... then maybe work your way to the starter button.

.