Starter clutch failure

[Dogma]

To be honest, I haven't paid the closest attention to starter clutch threads. Is this the result of the dreaded starter kick-back?

In case that link turns out to be less than permanent, here's Google Photo's "share" link. You can zoom in on it there too.

The other two are showing bulges, but haven't torn through yet. The starter motor just spins. I used to get the occasional kickback, but have had an electrical intervention for that installed for a season or two. No unusual metal on the oil drain plug.

This happened (or maybe culminated) last fall at the Motoworks Gingerman track day, the morning before I crashed. Joe Nardy's prediction was that the clutch and rotor had come loose from the crank. These last few months I've been afraid the crank's taper would be all chowdered. So I'm honestly relieved to see this. Availability of the starter clutch assembly looks problematic though. Nothing on eBay at the moment and reverse part number lookup suggests this clutch was only on the 1000G. Is replacement the only fix?

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The stator I installed after the 2010 RRR with a series regulator looks like new. Around 20-25,000 miles on it.

 

[Steve]

To be honest, I haven't paid the closest attention to starter clutch threads. Is this the result of the dreaded starter kick-back?

... Is replacement the only fix?

Yes, I believe that is the result of kick-back. I have heard that it's possible to weld it closed, but I don't have a welder, so have never tried it.

I might have one for you, but can't guarantee it's from a 1000, let alone a G. You would have to bring the rotor up to see if it would bolt up.

.

 

[Dogma]

Yes, I believe that is the result of kick-back. I have heard that it's possible to weld it closed, but I don't have a welder, so have never tried it.

I might have one for you, but can't guarantee it's from a 1000, let alone a G. You would have to bring the rotor up to see if it would bolt up.

.

Ah, here's the answer to my question in the parts wanted post. Removal requires the special tool, right?

 

[chuck hahn]

Look at the center of the rotor once you take out the bolt that hold it to the crank. If the rotor has larger threaded hole in the center its a 16 X 1.25 thread. I may be wrong on the pitch but it IS 16MM. Anyways, get a hardened bolt..or 1 with a 1.25 pitch and 1 with 1.50 pitch... and thread it in the hole and use a impact to remove the rotor.

If it has a big hub with threads on the outside youll need the special puller. Once the rotors off and you take off the clutch you can tap that rip down and weld it. Clean the clutch and rotor well with brake cleaner so there is no oil left. Use red loctite on the bolts that hold the clutch to the rotor. Wait about an hr or so for the loctite to cure before running the bike.

EDIT-- Since the clutch will be off you may consider putting in new springs too. Just as a preventative measure of course s the springs do weaken and eventually snap. Myself, I go to the Dollar store and get a cheap pack of clicker style pens and use the springs. They are a bit tougher and have been working fine for me for a long time now.

 

[Fjbj40]

16mm x 1.50 thread for removal bolt.

While you are at the bolt depot get yourself 3 new Allen socket bolts, 8x1.25 about a inch long, highest grade metric, for reassembly of starter clutch. Use the red lock-tite as suggested.

Do yourself a favour and also replace the 9 replaceable parts, 3 each of rollers, springs and pistons with OEM Suzuki stuff, it's cheap enough. http://www.ronniesmailorder.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d40279f8700230d8b4e78c/starter-clutch
check item 11 for damage, it can be sanded out if not too bad.

Hope you have an impact gun.

 

[Dogma]

Thanks for the info, guys. The hub does have threads on the OD, so it looks like I need to get the tool. Definitely I'll be replacing everything that looks like it might have wear or is cheap enough to do anyway.

I don't have a welder, and I don't know anyone I'd trust with that job. Is there anyone who provides that service in the same way as welding clutch baskets, etc. in case I can't find a replacement?

I'm rather surprised that Suzuki designed these so the pins can bottom out against such thin material. I want to get a closer look at that.

 

[chuck hahn]

Thanks....couldnt remember if it was 1.25 or 1.50 pitch. Mines at the storage unit so I couldnt throw a pitch gauge at it. Think mines grade 8 bolt too...dark almost black in color.

 

[chuck hahn]

Throw up a pic of the side of the rotor where a puller would go.

 

[chuck hahn]

The special puller is basically a bell shaped deal with a M38 X 1.50 female thread and a long bolt that goes down the center and pushes off the crank. Motion Pro has them for about 40 bucks I think

 

[Dogma]

eBay has a ton of them for $18. You can't miss them when searching for starter clutches.

The threads are pretty visible on the parts diagram. If there's something else you need to see, let me know what so I can make sure it gets into a shot.

 

[Fjbj40]

Looking at the parts fiche they show the same p/n for the rotor. Maybe try the bolt for ****s and giggles, you never know

 

[Dogma]

Hang on, I didn't see that before; threads on the ID as well. Didn't I read someplace once upon a time that it's the same thread as a swingarm pivot pin? I might have one of those from an 850 parts bike. I need to get out the rattle gun and take off that first screw. But not tonight.

 

[Big T]

If you've been getting kick back, you'll probably find that the surface of the starter gear looks like the 7 dwarves have been hammering on it.
Mine sure did

 

[steve murdoch]

A little late to this thread but i will ask anyways.
Dogma, in your original post you said...."i used to get the occasional kickback"
How or what does this entail? Is there a metal on metal grinding, a clunk, a delayed start to the starter motor spinning?

 

[850 Combat]

It looks like some of the parts aren't available any more. Last one I did, I replaced both the big gear, and the bearings for it. They were not shown as available in the link. I did use either Partshark or Bike Bandit, probably. I thought that my gear was too wobbly. The new bearing and gear fixed that up. I do know that wherever I bought the parts, the bearing was a single substitute, not the double shown as the original bearing. I tried to buy the OEM bolts too, but I suspect that they were hardware grade.

Good luck

 

[Dogma]

A little late to this thread but i will ask anyways.
Dogma, in your original post you said...."i used to get the occasional kickback"
How or what does this entail? Is there a metal on metal grinding, a clunk, a delayed start to the starter motor spinning?

Sometimes when the engine fails to start, there is some reverse rotation. This causes the starter clutch to engage in a rather dynamic way that hammers the components. It would be a thunk after you let off the starter button. It can happen during cranking too, but I'm not clear on how that sequence goes. There are a couple electrical interventions to reduce or eliminate this. Basically, power to the coils doesn't come on until the engine has turned over for some short time. The method I have installed is not available anymore, so I won't bother recommending it.

It occurred to me recently that I may have cause this failure by starting the bike in gear with the clutch out in situations that were not broken-clutch-cable emergencies. I thought I was only adding some wear to the starter motor brushes. I shall have to behave myself in the future, if I don't see a way to prevent these loads from going back through the pins. Right now, the design of the clutch seems faulty to me, but I may have to revise that opinion once I see it for myself. I suppose I could abstain from forming opinions until I have the facts, but where's the fun in that?

 

[Fjbj40]

Starter kickback is ugly! I eliminated it by putting in the ignition retard lever.

It was frequent due to the high compression Pistons in my 1085.

It can sound like a big hammer hitting something inside the engine and the object being hit moves a little bit, your teeth actually feel it!

 

[Dogma]

OK, that was by far the longest I've applied a rattle gun to anything. I've never had a socket get warm before. That was some good thread lock they put in there.

The threads in the hub measure ?14.8 by my calipers. That's consistent with M16x1.25. I don't have thread gauges, but an M8x1.25 matched up perfectly in it. It's 26 deep to the end of the crank, and not much of a shoulder in there because of the M12x1.25 threads in the crank. I'd better find a way to protect the M12. Hmm. That hole seems to go all the way through the 1st throw, so I can't push on the bottom of it.

Hub OD threads measure M35x1.5, in case anyone is keeping score.

Now where am I going to get an M16 fine thread screw? McMaster, of course. I need to order some stuff from them anyway. They'd probably have it here tomorrow, if I had that other shopping list ready.

But I don't like that there's such a narrow shoulder for an M16 to push on at the end of the crank. Does the crank need any cleaning up after this process?

 

[850 Combat]

Man I love McMaster Carr and Grainger. I got all the rod ends to rebuild the steering and front suspension in my old Polaris Snow Machine at Grainger. Better quality and with zerk fittings for less than half the cost of OEM. Lots of the OEM were NLA in the parts book. It isn't like Polaris made their own.. Of course they were still available. Just had to figure out what they used. I think I use Grainger more often than McMaster Carr.

 

[Dogma]

Man I love McMaster Carr and Grainger. I got all the rod ends to rebuild the steering and front suspension in my old Polaris Snow Machine at Grainger. Better quality and with zerk fittings for less than half the cost of OEM. Lots of the OEM were NLA in the parts book. It isn't like Polaris made their own.. Of course they were still available. Just had to figure out what they used. I think I use Grainger more often than McMaster Carr.

My needs are a little different. One cool thing about Grainger is that you can often drive (or send a gofer) there to pick up what you're after, if you can't wait for next day delivery. I wonder if you could hire an Uber car to go get stuff from Grainger. Maybe they have a delivery truck now. It's been 20 years since I had dealings with them.