Starter Gears Stuck?

[Naturchine]

Hi,
I recently bought a 1981 GS850G that was stored indoors for 8 years.
Bike wasn't starting when I got it.

Starter motor is newly re-done and works. Battery is new and fully
charged. When I bridge the starter relay with a screwdriver, the
starter motor only clicks (not the relay that clicks) & absolutely
nothing else happens. It's like the starter motor wants to turn, but
the gear it connects to is stuck.
(fyi: engine itself is not stuck, kill switch is on run, side stand is up,
clutch is pulled/engaged, bike is in neutral)

1. Could the starter gears (or starter clutch or whatever it is) be
stuck, from the bike standing for so long?

2. What is the easiest (preferably non-technical, if possible) way to
unstuck starter gears (or whatever is prohibiting starter motor from
turning)?

My starter button does not work (does not make starter motor click),
but when my backwheel is elevated higher than the front wheel and the
bike is leaned a bit to the left side, the starter button works, and
makes the starter motor click (so the relay starter is 100% & not an
issue).

3. How do I fix this phenomenon (UFO )?

Greetings & thanks
Pierre Joubert

 

[tom203]

As to 1 : sure it's possible, but more likely the starter motor itself . "newly redone" starter ? as in rebuilt ? Anyways, there's no "non-technical" method of inspecting the starter system; you need to pull the case cover off and go exploring its innards. So you have determined that the engine itself is not stuck- has it been sitting idle for 8 years?

 

[Agemax]

the relay (solenoid) should click, not the starter. are you sure that is not what is happening?
if you are sure the battery is good, take off the cable from the solenoid, the one that goes to the starter motor and touch it on the other post of the solenoid,( that one is connected directly to the battery). the starter motor should spin then if the motor and battery is good.
Make sure you have good ground connections on the engine and the starter solenoid, to the frame,or direct to the battery negative if required

 

[bwringer]

If the starter "gears" (it's actually a one-way clutch mechanism) were stuck, the starter would still turn the engine. If it was truly stuck, the engine would actually continue to turn the starter and probably destroy it pretty quickly.

So that's not it.

Assuming the engine turns freely (you can easily turn the engine with a 19mm wrench on the right side of the crank), you either have low current available to the starter or the starter is not working correctly. Either the battery is weak or the wiring or the starter are failing under load.

Clean the ground and starter connections at both ends, make sure the battery has voltage, and bridge the starter relay again. I'd also put a volt meter on the battery and see what sort of voltage drop you're getting under load.

If that doesn't work, the starter motor isn't working correctly. It's very common that a failing starter will spin freely by itself, but it doesn't have enough power under load.

The starter rebuild could be faulty -- perhaps the brushes aren't making good enough contact.

 

[2BRacing]

Hey Pierre

Welcome to the GSR from another Saffer! There are a couple of us here: Flyboy from Benoni; Matchless from George and myself from Wellington (Cape).

After standing for 8 years there could be corrosion on electrical connectors and earths. I suggest that you start at the back and work your way forward, cleaning every electrical connector and earth point.

Follow the suggestions above and see if the starter spins. Report back here on your results.

I find your comment that ..."My starter button does not work (does not make starter motor click), but when my backwheel is elevated higher than the front wheel and the bike is leaned a bit to the left side, the starter button works, and makes the starter motor click ..." quite strange, and this may indicate that there is a loose connection somewhere.

If you work methodically through all connections, you will find the culprit.

Good luck!

 

[Guest]

I've seen where the starter clutch bolts backed out and took out the idler gear and all the splines on the starter.
The guy thought his motor locked up.

 

[Steve]

(fyi: engine itself is not stuck, kill switch is on run, side stand is up, clutch is pulled/engaged, bike is in neutral)

Unless there was something in your "safety" regulations that mandated some sort of switch,
the position of the side stand has no effect on starting/running ability.

Here in the USA, a "Side Stand" light appeared on some of the 1982 models.
They only activated a light on the instrument panel, they had no effect on starting/running ability, either.

.

 

[Naturchine]

Hi
Thanks to every one for the replies so far!
I'm busy learning what a GS is made up out of, so please excuse any
unclarities, non-technical phrases / descriptions, or anything of that
nature.


UPDATE:
When I tried starting the bike (a month ago), the click got louder
(and click sound started to differentiate) the more I tried: like it
was beginning / trying / starting to free whatever made the starter
motor to not turn.



tom203:

Just for clarity: As far as I understand, the starter motor's gear
connects to the starter clutch.

1. Am I correct?

2. If you are referring to the starter clutch being possibly stuck,
any idea how to unstick it; or, make sure it's not stuck otherwise?

I am willing to pull the cover.

3. Will all the oil drain (or a tiny bit) if it's on center stand or
leaned to right side?

4. How to get those tight (star point screwdriver) bolts loose (and
without damaging bolts)?

New brushes and armature's top layer cleared / cleaned / scraped
(shiny / mirror).

Has been sitting idle for 8 years. Back wheel can turn when in gear
and engine has most compression in first gear and least in fifth gear
(when bike is pushed and in gear).



Agemax:

I can hear a click coming from the starter motor / engine's side
(sounds to specifically come from starter motor). I've definitely
never heard the relay starter / solenoid click/s at any time.

I will try your suggestion concerning by-passing the solenoid (other
end of wire connected to starter motor's post / bolt, directly to
battery's positive terminal).

1. Good ground connections: meaning where the starter motor touches /
bolted onto the engine, it should make good contact / clean surfaces
(debris / filth / corrosion could disable ground connection)?

2. Any other ground connections that I should take a look at?



bwringer:

1. What is the starter motor's gear connecting to in the engine: what
is the one-way clutch mechanism called?

I was thinking that the gears are corroded stuck to each other.
And not the clutch mechanism stuck in the starting position and
therefore still free to spin.

Engine turning freely: back wheel can turn when in gear. Engine has
most compression in first gear and least in fifth gear (when bike is
pushed and in gear).

I will do as your recommendation requires and get back to you
concerning the outcome / conclusion.



2BRacing:

Thanks for the welcome! I would love to cruise with you / all, if the
opportunity ever arises. My dad lives in Wellington. I lived there
between 2002 - 2007. Great to know you're so close by.

1. How do I know what / where the earths / earth points are?

2. How do I thoroughly clean the female connectors? Can I use copper
wire strands (electric cable's insides) and create a sort of a
friction / scraping in the female connectors?

3. Do you know if I can put a thin layer of non-corossive bearing
grease (it's what I have) on the connectors to retard / protect from
future corrosion (I don't have Vaseline at hand).

I will do as your recommendation requires and report back on the
outcome / conclusion.



chef1366

Very interesting information, thank you! I will keep this in mind.

1. Was the back wheel locked?

2. Do you know what happened / symptoms when he tried to start the
bike (starter motor click, etc)?



Steve

Just cancelling out what I can until bike starts & then learn how it
functions from there on.

Thank you for the information.

 

[tom203]

"UPDATE:
When I tried starting the bike (a month ago), the click got louder
(and click sound started to differentiate) the more I tried: like it
was beginning / trying / starting to free whatever made the starter
motor to not turn."

Sure sounds like weak battery , bad connections ,or tired starter motor . So your engine turns over -this is good. Look at attached pic; the starter motor turns an immediate gear (not in pic) that turns the gear you see in pic; this spins and the starter clutch (just to left of gear) "locks" up and spins crankshaft in correct direction



You can lean the bike carefully and sturdily to right and no oil will come out if you take off cover. I'd suspect bad connections, so first check these like others have said.

 

[Big T]

Click is not very accurate

Get out your VOM and tell us these voltages

Battery static

Positive solenoid static

Voltage at starter when solenoid bridged

Voltage at battery when solenoid ridged

You likely have a host of small problems causing voltage drop

Pull the spark plugs and the ignition cover. See if the motor rotates when you turn the big nut

 

[Naturchine]

Hey guys,

Thanks for pointing me to the electrical side of things.

This is what the Suzuki GS850G Service Manual has to say:
(Well, I can't quote, so I will interperet):
If the motor doesn't crank, the relay contact points are problematic,
or starter motor is then internally open-circuited.

I've already bridged the relay, and everything is pointing to the
starter motor.

It sounds like (according to the manual), the armature needs to
be replaced.

I will need to replace the relay (no chatter) (confirmed by manual).
I've cleaned grounds and electrical connections (almost finished).
Turned the engine / crank with a 19mm wrench (was able to turn).

So before I do anything else, I will take care of the starter motor's
armature & follow more of the suggestions, if needs be (voltage
readings etc).

Thanks for all of the awesome insight so far!

 

[2BRacing]

The brushes of the starter motor could be worn down too short, making poor contact. If the starter has seen a lot of use, the copper segments of the armature could be worn down as well, with very little "gap" between them.

If this is the case, use a hacksaw blade to "undercut" the insulation between the copper segments, thus restoring each individual segment.

It is seldom necessary to have to replace the whole armature.

 

[Naturchine]

2BRacing:

Thanks for the hack (armature). I appreciate such helpful information.
After cleaning contacts and putting in new fuses, the starter button once again works. Thanks so much!!
I'm still busy with the rest, but will be back to report on progress.

 

[Naturchine]

I opened the left cover / casing of the engine.
I bridged the solenoid to start the bike.
That what sounded like a click, is the starter motor (CCW) trying to turn the gear it's connected to, but is unable to, and then (when starter motor stops trying) the gears spin in reverse direction (of what starter motor was trying to turn it (starter motor's gear then also spins with it: CW)).
The gears (the starter motor is connected to) easily and freely rotates in the opposite direction of what it's supposed to turn, but when I try (by hand) to turn gears in proper direction: it's stuck.
As mentioned previously, I successfully rotated 19mm crank bolt situated on rotor's side (I did not remove sparkplugs when I turned bolt).

 

[chuck hahn]

If the engine will turn over with the crank bolt and you dont hear the starter clutch bolts hitting the engine case, I would go back to the starter itself. Put a wrench on the rotor bolt and see if the engine turns without anything hitting or hanging up..youre inside the cover anyway. Take a hammer and tap on the end of the starters gear while the cover is off also to see if it jiggles the armerature loose and will spin the motor again.

I am betting on a junked out starter motor..or at least a mis reassembled one.

And if you twist the starter clutch gear to the left it should grab the crank..to the right it should just free spin.

 

[Naturchine]

Voltage readings:

I fully charged the battery and when I put VOM probes on + & - : 12.99 V
When I bridged solenoid, and probes on battery, read: 10.6 V
When I bridged solenoid, + probe on starter motor bolt (where cable from solenoid connects) & - probe on battery negative, read: 0 V
And when I unbridged the solenoid (when it gives 0 V), the gears would spin backward & suddenly a reading is given: 5.3 V
After all the testing etc, + & - probes on battery, read: 12.6 V

 

[Naturchine]

Thank you Chuck Hahn.
I will turn the bolt (left engine casing / stator cover, correct?).

What did you exactly mean with this:

"Take a hammer and tap on the end of the starters gear while the cover is off also to see if it jiggles the armerature loose and will spin the motor again." ?

The starter motor's gear?

 

[Big T]

From those readings, your battery is dead and your starter is all gummed up

Pull out your starter and carefully take it apart and see what's inside

The battery should be over 13V and deliver at least 12 V to the starter

 

[Naturchine]

Big T: Thank you for the reply.
The battery is new and the figures tell me that the battery is fine.
The starter motor was opened, cleaned (including armature), new brushes, and undercut length is correct. Afterwards the starter motor gear ate through a piece of wood, when the auto-electrician tested it in this manner.
To me the question still remains: why the 0 Volt reading when starter motor engages?
This rather seems to me something like a bad earth connection, bad wire or something else.
Would the starter motor give a 0 volt reading upon engaging if the starter motor gear is physically stopped / forced to not spin?

 

[Naturchine]

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, concerning battery being fine.