Starter or not to starter

[Track06]

By the time i get this bike up and running well it will be brand new!!! So just as I'm starting to button everything up, my starter motor starts to die... Click, click... No boom. So i pulled the starter, and pulled it apart and cleaned it, one of the magnets came loose so i glued it back in place. The brushes seemed very worn, but i put it all back together anyway, and back onto the bike. It started once but then click.. Click... I pulled starter back out hooked it up to my battery charger/ jumper to see if it would spin... Zaps and spins! Put it back on the bike hooked it all back up, and it starts... Before i got too excited i tried again, started again, went for three... Nothing! Now I'm scratching my head so i check the cable from the starter solenoid I've got 11v when the starter button is pressed however, when it's bolted on the Starter i have 0v. The case has ground so is this what it is supposed to read? Is it just a rebuild that is needed? Sorry for the wordy post... I'm just trying to ride!

 

[Brendan W]

Ok if I understand correctly the motor spins freely off the bike. There is 11V at the supply cable at the motor end with the relay pulled in but no measurable voltage with the supply connected to the motor?
This is symptomatic of a corroded relay contact bar. With no current flowing the high resistance will not be apparent, however when current tries to flow there will big a big drop at the relay and the motor will,not spin.
Try bridging the poles of the relay with a screwdriver. This will bypass the internal contacts.
If this solves the problem you are looking at a new relay or spending some time getting contact cleaner into it and tapping it, activating the coil repeatedly until it works.
Are you sure the ground is good? Try jumping the starter motor on the bike with the supply direct to the motor and the ground direct from the case.

 

[roeme]

You're still frantically doing a multitude of things at the same time instead of being methodical. Any chance you're suffering from ADHD or the like?

Unless you're sure that your magnet-glue-repair will hold, replace the starter motor as a complete unit. Or maybe use another second-hand motor to build a functioning one out of two. New brushes at the very least.

The fact that you're getting 0V when connecting the solenoid to the starter means you could've f$k!d up. Beware: It's possible that you've created an unfused dead short. This will result in fire. Furthermore, this may have damaged the solenoid, battery and/or wiring.

The list of possible issues here is all over the shop, and it's hard to diagnose remotely.

In any case, intermittant starting is a sure sign of worn brushes, seldomly it's caused by issues in the solenoid. The latter tend to fail completely (always open or closed), when they do.

 

[Guest]

I would agree with Brendan's approach. It may not be your solenoid yet the proper way to diagnose electrical problems is to eliminate parts of the circuit. Take the solenoid out of the mix and if your problem persists then look closer at the motor. When you look at the motor one thing you can do is get an amp draw reading with it running on the bench. hook it up and use an ampprobe clamping type meter around the power wire. Set it to peak hold/inrush so that when you start up the motor it will give you the current it's requiring to get the motor spinning. You probably can't find any spec telling you exactly what it should be but if your motor is bad you should be able to tell right away by an extreme inrush current.
I'm with you though, I would try making that motor work before I went buying another. As long as you don't have a short/open in the windings, it ought to be an easy fix whether it's brushes or bearings or whatever.
Can you hear the solenoid click? Take the lead going to the motor off the solenoid and attach your volt meter and push the button and see if your getting a reliable 12V out of it. Does the motor click at all the moment you hit the button? Have you burned up any fuses? These are all clues you can look at to find your problem.

 

[Track06]

Ok if I understand correctly the motor spins freely off the bike. There is 11V at the supply cable at the motor end with the relay pulled in but no measurable voltage with the supply connected to the motor?
This is symptomatic of a corroded relay contact bar. With no current flowing the high resistance will not be apparent, however when current tries to flow there will big a big drop at the relay and the motor will,not spin.
Try bridging the poles of the relay with a screwdriver. This will bypass the internal contacts.
If this solves the problem you are looking at a new relay or spending some time getting contact cleaner into it and tapping it, activating the coil repeatedly until it works.
Are you sure the ground is good? Try jumping the starter motor on the bike with the supply direct to the motor and the ground direct from the case.

I went out there this morning to do some more testing, yes that is correct, if i clamp the connector on the end of the supply cable and touch the lead to the positive battery and hit the start button i get 11-12v. but if it touches the starter motor i get nothing. I tried jumping the starter motor bolted to the bike using the bikes battery and it turns.
I will state that i am very new to all this and i have re wired the entire bike, i drew out the schematics and ill post it as soon as i reply to everyone helping me. thank you!

 

[Track06]

You're still frantically doing a multitude of things at the same time instead of being methodical. Any chance you're suffering from ADHD or the like?

Unless you're sure that your magnet-glue-repair will hold, replace the starter motor as a complete unit. Or maybe use another second-hand motor to build a functioning one out of two. New brushes at the very least.

The fact that you're getting 0V when connecting the solenoid to the starter means you could've f$k!d up. Beware: It's possible that you've created an unfused dead short. This will result in fire. Furthermore, this may have damaged the solenoid, battery and/or wiring.

The list of possible issues here is all over the shop, and it's hard to diagnose remotely.

In any case, intermittant starting is a sure sign of worn brushes, seldomly it's caused by issues in the solenoid. The latter tend to fail completely (always open or closed), when they do.

Why yes i do actually have ADHD, Im just chasing down issues i thought i was just being thorough.. i glues the magnet in place using JBweld and made sure it went in just as it came out. If it is the brushes then why does it start when i give it power straight from the battery, makes me think there is something else going on. before this happened my starter button failed, i replaced it with one from the auto parts store but somehow i had wired it incorrectly and the motor would only stay running if the button was continuously held down. i sorted that out and now the button works as it should but the starter is acting up. i will also say that after wiring in the starter button the bike started and ran fine for a few days then yesterday after doing some tuning runs it just decided to not work, i hit it with a wrench a few times and it kicked on a few more times, took it apart cleaned it, put it back on and it started a few more times, but now i cant get anything out of it.... unless its directly connected to the positive end of the battery.

 

[Track06]

I would agree with Brendan's approach. It may not be your solenoid yet the proper way to diagnose electrical problems is to eliminate parts of the circuit. Take the solenoid out of the mix and if your problem persists then look closer at the motor. When you look at the motor one thing you can do is get an amp draw reading with it running on the bench. hook it up and use an ampprobe clamping type meter around the power wire. Set it to peak hold/inrush so that when you start up the motor it will give you the current it's requiring to get the motor spinning. You probably can't find any spec telling you exactly what it should be but if your motor is bad you should be able to tell right away by an extreme inrush current.
I'm with you though, I would try making that motor work before I went buying another. As long as you don't have a short/open in the windings, it ought to be an easy fix whether it's brushes or bearings or whatever.
Can you hear the solenoid click? Take the lead going to the motor off the solenoid and attach your volt meter and push the button and see if your getting a reliable 12V out of it. Does the motor click at all the moment you hit the button? Have you burned up any fuses? These are all clues you can look at to find your problem.

i have not had a chance to do some of your tests, the starter solenoid does click the moment i hit the starter button, and i can physically see and feel the supply wire that goes to the starter motor move a little.

 

[Track06]

i tried my best to look at my wiring job (remember this is my very first time doing any of this) and draw it out for you so maybe you can see if i have completely botched the wiring. i mean it has been starting and running just fine for weeks, ive just been messing with tuning the carbs and doing short runs down the street... no too far cause i had to push the bike home about a 2 blocks last week when she died and would not start back up!!! Thank you guys so much for the help i would be so lost without this website!!!!

 

[Steve]

Hopefully there is a LOT more to your wiring on the bike. :-k

1. There should be no fuse between the battery and the solenoid, especially not a 30 amp fuse. When all is running well and operating as it should, the starter will easily pull 60-80 amps while starting the engine.

2. There must be a wire missing between the battery and the ignition switch. The way you have it pictured, the only time your lights will have power is when the kill switch is ON and the starter button is being pushed.

3. There is no ground shown for the ignitor. Bike will not run without it. It will crank, but will not fire.

4. Besides having no ground, there are no triggers for the ignitor. Again, will crank, but will not fire.

5. Not sure why the rear brake light switch is in the tail light circuit.

6. Not going to comment on the lack of other rather important stuff, like turn signals and horns.

.

 

[Track06]

Hopefully there is a LOT more to your wiring on the bike. :-k

1. There should be no fuse between the battery and the solenoid, especially not a 30 amp fuse. When all is running well and operating as it should, the starter will easily pull 60-80 amps while starting the engine.

2. There must be a wire missing between the battery and the ignition switch. The way you have it pictured, the only time your lights will have power is when the kill switch is ON and the starter button is being pushed.

3. There is no ground shown for the ignitor. Bike will not run without it. It will crank, but will not fire.

4. Besides having no ground, there are no triggers for the ignitor. Again, will crank, but will not fire.

5. Not sure why the rear brake light switch is in the tail light circuit.

6. Not going to comment on the lack of other rather important stuff, like turn signals and horns.

.

Ok, you are right, i tried to write everything down then i illustrated out whilst i was at work. There is not a fuse between the battery and the starter solenoid, also the headlight and tail light come on with constant power once the key is turned on. The igniter is bolted to the electronics box i welded in under the seat so it's grounded off the frame. I also got the brake switch labeled wrong in the picture.... Sorry. I have started this bike and i have ridden it up and down the street working out tuning the carbs. Turn signals and horn are just not in there yet.