So, what he's asking is
Did you verify that the starter is turning the engine over?
Sounds like you did verify if you're confirming spark intensity
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So, what he's asking is
Did you verify that the starter is turning the engine over?
Sounds like you did verify if you're confirming spark intensity
When we were trying to get cloudbreakmd's bike started, we noticed air being sucked back in through the exhaust because the dipstick who replaced the head gasket had the cams in wrong. Cloudbreakmd didn't do the job and farmed it out to someone that pretended to know how to do it.
You could see a towel being pulled the wrong way when it was cranked.
Don't assume anything. Compression on the engine was only about 50 lbs and it turned incredibly easy, too easy in fact. That was the giveaway.
Combined with the clogged carbs it was saddled with two major problems. Ran good when we retimed the engine and swapped carbs.
If the plugs are blackened clean them off. New plugs would be a good idea just check the gap for .6 to .7 mm
You could see a towel being pulled the wrong way when it was cranked.
Don't assume anything. Compression on the engine was only about 50 lbs and it turned incredibly easy, too easy in fact. That was the giveaway.
Combined with the clogged carbs it was saddled with two major problems. Ran good when we retimed the engine and swapped carbs.
If the plugs are blackened clean them off. New plugs would be a good idea just check the gap for .6 to .7 mm
G
Guest
Guest
Just to follow up on that thought, is it possible the intake & exhaust cam shafts are swapped?
O
old_chopper
Guest
This post has pulled me in like a $1.00 movie! I was so hoping to check this morning and hear that it roared to life. Don't give up now or many of us will be left wondering "what if" forever. I wish you were 1500 miles or so closer so I could see whats going on myself.
S
spyug
Guest
Thanks guys. I appreciate all the interest and support. I feel now that I can't stop as I'll be leaving everyone in the lurch kinda like the silly ending to the Sopranos.
I really do need to get this figured as I'm not sleeping well and the old lady was coomplaining this morning about my tossing and turning and mumbling about "cams and ignition". Ididn't even know I talked in my sleep. At least I'm not calling some other womans name
To go over a few points:
a) the starter and gear are fine as the engine turns over and spins away just like it should. When hand turned it puts up a bit of resistance so that makes me think again compression is decent.
b) the cams were removed when the head came off but the cam gears were left in place. As you know the gears are clearly marked "In" and "Ex" and the "Ex" has marks 1 & 2. The "Ex" cam goes to the front of course. so no they are not missplaced.
c) the plugs are brand spanking new and clean as a whistle. They spark blue or blue white. I checked voltage at the battery, then at the coils and there is a drop of barely 1/10 of a volt or so. The coils are pretty much getting full battery voltage of 12.6+.
d) even with trying three sets of carbs including the ones off my GS that run right, it doesn't seem that gas is getting to the cylinders as the plugs remain dry even after cranking for 2 or 3 minutes. That I can't understand. Even with just choke on they should be wet. Also putting gas or ether directly into the cylinders makes zero difference.
I'm on my way out to pick up a new comprssion guage so we'll soon see what we're dealing with (I'm including all you guys in the collective we).
Stay tuned.
Cheers,
Spyug
I really do need to get this figured as I'm not sleeping well and the old lady was coomplaining this morning about my tossing and turning and mumbling about "cams and ignition". Ididn't even know I talked in my sleep. At least I'm not calling some other womans name
To go over a few points:
a) the starter and gear are fine as the engine turns over and spins away just like it should. When hand turned it puts up a bit of resistance so that makes me think again compression is decent.
b) the cams were removed when the head came off but the cam gears were left in place. As you know the gears are clearly marked "In" and "Ex" and the "Ex" has marks 1 & 2. The "Ex" cam goes to the front of course. so no they are not missplaced.
c) the plugs are brand spanking new and clean as a whistle. They spark blue or blue white. I checked voltage at the battery, then at the coils and there is a drop of barely 1/10 of a volt or so. The coils are pretty much getting full battery voltage of 12.6+.
d) even with trying three sets of carbs including the ones off my GS that run right, it doesn't seem that gas is getting to the cylinders as the plugs remain dry even after cranking for 2 or 3 minutes. That I can't understand. Even with just choke on they should be wet. Also putting gas or ether directly into the cylinders makes zero difference.
I'm on my way out to pick up a new comprssion guage so we'll soon see what we're dealing with (I'm including all you guys in the collective we).
Stay tuned.
Cheers,
Spyug
Being somewhat of an expert on silly little things holding up projects could it be something as minor as a sidestand safety switch, clutch lever safety switch or kill switch malfunction.
Another one of those embarrassing moments when i killed a battery not noticing the slightly askew kill switch.
Keep at it, Spyug.
Another one of those embarrassing moments when i killed a battery not noticing the slightly askew kill switch.
Keep at it, Spyug.
O
old_chopper
Guest
If the compression check is acceptable try squirting a little too much gas in the carbs. Worst case scenario you flood it for a while. Did you try choking the carbs with your hand over the intake? These don't really have a choke but rather an enrichening circuit. I put a Mikuni on an old 45" HD and it was hard to start without the choke. I would lean it over to flood it a little bit when it was cold and it would fire right up.
S
spyug
Guest
Thanks for the suggestion Steve.
No sidestand switch on this puppy and the clutch switch was defective so I took it out of the loop and joined the connections at the harness. I voltage tested all the way down from the handlebar control to the solenoid on the yellow/green line and it was fine. I also had that switch apart numerous times for cleaning and testing and the kill switch operates as advertised.
Ed, Once I freed up the pistons I merely "deglazed" the cylinders with a light honing and bolted it all back together. I also re-used the head gasket that came off it. I had my pro mechanic look at it and he passed it as worth a try. Remember, I was trying to confirm that this engine ran before putting any more dollars into the project. In hindsight that may have been a bad move as its very possible that gasket is giving me a compression issues. If that turns out to be the case you guys can all give me the "I told you so" and it will be a lesson learned.
Even if that is the case, I still can't understand how gas doesn't seem to get to the cylinders or why a straight shot of gas or ether doesn't ellicit at least a "fart" out of it.
Oldchopper, I've had the carbs swimming in gas and ****ing all over the place and still nada, as I keep saying I can't understand how I can't light off at least some of it. In all my years, I've never not been able to get some sign of life out of an engine.
I'm starting to feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone or that movie Groundhog Day where I'm doomed to go through the same motions every day.
Stay tuned for more adventures.
Cheers,
Spyug
Cheers,
Spyug
No sidestand switch on this puppy and the clutch switch was defective so I took it out of the loop and joined the connections at the harness. I voltage tested all the way down from the handlebar control to the solenoid on the yellow/green line and it was fine. I also had that switch apart numerous times for cleaning and testing and the kill switch operates as advertised.
Ed, Once I freed up the pistons I merely "deglazed" the cylinders with a light honing and bolted it all back together. I also re-used the head gasket that came off it. I had my pro mechanic look at it and he passed it as worth a try. Remember, I was trying to confirm that this engine ran before putting any more dollars into the project. In hindsight that may have been a bad move as its very possible that gasket is giving me a compression issues. If that turns out to be the case you guys can all give me the "I told you so" and it will be a lesson learned.
Even if that is the case, I still can't understand how gas doesn't seem to get to the cylinders or why a straight shot of gas or ether doesn't ellicit at least a "fart" out of it.
Oldchopper, I've had the carbs swimming in gas and ****ing all over the place and still nada, as I keep saying I can't understand how I can't light off at least some of it. In all my years, I've never not been able to get some sign of life out of an engine.
I'm starting to feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone or that movie Groundhog Day where I'm doomed to go through the same motions every day.
Stay tuned for more adventures.
Cheers,
Spyug
Cheers,
Spyug
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E
engel
Guest
humour me.
it turns, it sparks, it has feelable compression, new plugs, and won't go bang.
as theres been thirty hours in this, does your 2 year old gs battery and carbs when dropped back on the gs get the gs started? if so then the carbs are eliminated.
i'm also assuming the kat takes the same 10 mm plugs as your E (is this the four valver we get as the GSX over here?)so try them in it too. before you do, take the plugs you removed in the first place and insert them into the plug leads with the other set still in the head. spool her over and check that they all fire and in the correct order despite the slowing of the crank rotation as she fights compression.
as old mate asked are the plugs wet from cranking? is your fuel stuffed perhaps? tip a small drop of it on one of the plugs you have on the outside of the head and see if its still flamable enough to ignite outside the chamber. of course be at the ready to blow out or douse the flame if she goes off and lights.
your timing to the cams and crank is what i'm worried about. even when my stuffed igniter was only firing when i switched on then off the ignition/flicked the killswitch, irrespective of where the pistons were in there bores, the crack of the 4 plugs sparking in unison set off a massive backfire that scared the **** out of my neighbours. while turning over yours will only be going off one at a time but if theres drawn in or squirted in mixture in the pot and it ain't goin bang then you either don't have spark , or you don't have it occurring anywhere near top dead centre with the valves shut.
if this was a V8 LA wedge mopar i'd ask you to remove the dizzy and rotate it 180 degrees and give that a burl. as this can't happen, please put a plug in no.1 lead and with a thumb over the open no.1 plug hole and leaning over to watch that plug, thumb the starter and make certain that the time the plug cracks coincides with the stroke and instant the compression stroke blasts your thumb off that pot.
best of luck, glen.
additional: "I had my pro mechanic look at it and he passed it as worth a try. Remember, I was trying to confirm that this engine ran before putting any more dollars into the project. In hindsight that may have been a bad move as its very possible that gasket is giving me a compression issues."
hang on? did you try to fire this donk before you pulled the head and reassembled? i cleaned the carbs in mine then tried it for running before i got into any other part of fixing the bike. if so did it run? my condolences on reusing the gasket.
it turns, it sparks, it has feelable compression, new plugs, and won't go bang.
as theres been thirty hours in this, does your 2 year old gs battery and carbs when dropped back on the gs get the gs started? if so then the carbs are eliminated.
i'm also assuming the kat takes the same 10 mm plugs as your E (is this the four valver we get as the GSX over here?)so try them in it too. before you do, take the plugs you removed in the first place and insert them into the plug leads with the other set still in the head. spool her over and check that they all fire and in the correct order despite the slowing of the crank rotation as she fights compression.
as old mate asked are the plugs wet from cranking? is your fuel stuffed perhaps? tip a small drop of it on one of the plugs you have on the outside of the head and see if its still flamable enough to ignite outside the chamber. of course be at the ready to blow out or douse the flame if she goes off and lights.
your timing to the cams and crank is what i'm worried about. even when my stuffed igniter was only firing when i switched on then off the ignition/flicked the killswitch, irrespective of where the pistons were in there bores, the crack of the 4 plugs sparking in unison set off a massive backfire that scared the **** out of my neighbours. while turning over yours will only be going off one at a time but if theres drawn in or squirted in mixture in the pot and it ain't goin bang then you either don't have spark , or you don't have it occurring anywhere near top dead centre with the valves shut.
if this was a V8 LA wedge mopar i'd ask you to remove the dizzy and rotate it 180 degrees and give that a burl. as this can't happen, please put a plug in no.1 lead and with a thumb over the open no.1 plug hole and leaning over to watch that plug, thumb the starter and make certain that the time the plug cracks coincides with the stroke and instant the compression stroke blasts your thumb off that pot.
best of luck, glen.
additional: "I had my pro mechanic look at it and he passed it as worth a try. Remember, I was trying to confirm that this engine ran before putting any more dollars into the project. In hindsight that may have been a bad move as its very possible that gasket is giving me a compression issues."
hang on? did you try to fire this donk before you pulled the head and reassembled? i cleaned the carbs in mine then tried it for running before i got into any other part of fixing the bike. if so did it run? my condolences on reusing the gasket.
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P
Ponderosa
Guest
Ok?
Ok?
No fuel? I am leaning toward intake valve problems, compression, or something simple.. Do you have suction at the carbs while cranking, can you throw a piece of saran wrap over the intakes, see if suction (even a little) is taking place? Do a leak down, pressure up cylinders on TDC see if you have any hold? My Pappy always said "It is usually the simple stuff we overlooked that screws us up!"..... Had a rebuilt Kat come into the shop years ago, said he rebuilt it, all looked well, but no fuel, no intake suction, he had put pieces of cloth in intakes when he washed the engine prior to tear down! They were wedged in every intake valve...
Ok?
No fuel? I am leaning toward intake valve problems, compression, or something simple.. Do you have suction at the carbs while cranking, can you throw a piece of saran wrap over the intakes, see if suction (even a little) is taking place? Do a leak down, pressure up cylinders on TDC see if you have any hold? My Pappy always said "It is usually the simple stuff we overlooked that screws us up!"..... Had a rebuilt Kat come into the shop years ago, said he rebuilt it, all looked well, but no fuel, no intake suction, he had put pieces of cloth in intakes when he washed the engine prior to tear down! They were wedged in every intake valve...
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S
spyug
Guest
Thanks Glen.
As you're coming a bit late to this party I'll try and catch you up.
The long and short of it is that I got this bike back in October as a rolling "basket case" for a winter resto. Engine was in frame but I didn't know at the time that it was seized. The PO mistakenly thought he had turned it over by hand ( He had about 6 similar projects on the go at the same time) and I didn't check until I got it home on the lift. I tried everything to free it up for more than a week before I decided to peel it apart and "bonk" the pistons with a chunk of 2"x4" to free them. So in answer to you, no it never ran prior to this. The history of the machine is also not really know so it could have been sitting for gosh knows how long. The PO had it for just over a year. Although the odo show around 60,000Km the innards look clean and no wear marks on cams or any pitting on the 3 or 4 valves and seats I sampled.
Being budget minded I wanted to hear this thing run before I went any further and this has brought me to where I am now. Carbs were througly cleaned and rebuilt, wiring harness and elctricals cleaned and sorted, valves adjusted, fresh plugs and a hope that it would fire.
I've just called in my best buddy who is a teacher but also a licenced mechanic for a consultation tonight ( free tucker and all the holy water he wants). Sometimes putting fresh eyeballs on things can pinpoint the problemo....at least that's what I'm hoping.
Sure would be nice to figure this out.
cheers,
spyug
As you're coming a bit late to this party I'll try and catch you up.
The long and short of it is that I got this bike back in October as a rolling "basket case" for a winter resto. Engine was in frame but I didn't know at the time that it was seized. The PO mistakenly thought he had turned it over by hand ( He had about 6 similar projects on the go at the same time) and I didn't check until I got it home on the lift. I tried everything to free it up for more than a week before I decided to peel it apart and "bonk" the pistons with a chunk of 2"x4" to free them. So in answer to you, no it never ran prior to this. The history of the machine is also not really know so it could have been sitting for gosh knows how long. The PO had it for just over a year. Although the odo show around 60,000Km the innards look clean and no wear marks on cams or any pitting on the 3 or 4 valves and seats I sampled.
Being budget minded I wanted to hear this thing run before I went any further and this has brought me to where I am now. Carbs were througly cleaned and rebuilt, wiring harness and elctricals cleaned and sorted, valves adjusted, fresh plugs and a hope that it would fire.
I've just called in my best buddy who is a teacher but also a licenced mechanic for a consultation tonight ( free tucker and all the holy water he wants). Sometimes putting fresh eyeballs on things can pinpoint the problemo....at least that's what I'm hoping.
Sure would be nice to figure this out.
cheers,
spyug
S
spyug
Guest
Interesting Mr. P. this head was the same way when I got it but I thought I had pulled out 4 wads. Maybe something is further in.
The saran wrap idea is a good one. I never would have thought of that. I'll be trying that tonight.
Your Pappy must have been from Scottish stock like mine as he always said the same thing. I know they are going to be proven right when I finally suss this thing.
Thanks for that input.
Spyug
S
Skateguy50
Guest
I was hoping with 10 pages I would eventually find a happy ending... guess I will grab some popcorn and hope for the best.
O
old_chopper
Guest
Oh the suspense!!! Could it be the hidden rags in the intakes? I'm thinking that could be possible. I have seen simpler things bring smart men to the brink of insanity trying to find the most complex answer. A platoon leader taught me the K.I.S.S. rule (No not the rock band), Keep It Simple Soldier. Seems most problems are just that, something simple.
I look forward to your post this evening telling us this thing fired up and disturbed the entire neighborhood with the noise...
I look forward to your post this evening telling us this thing fired up and disturbed the entire neighborhood with the noise...
P
Ponderosa
Guest
S
spyug
Guest
Well wait for it.......I might have a reason.
At lunch time I ran out to the garage to make sure the batteries were good and charged and on a whim I decided to set the cam timing as per the diagram and quadruple check everything yet again. The upper cam marks are tickety boo. When I go to have a peek at the timing mark on the advancer.......it ain't there. No T mark or pointer....it looks like everything has shifted. Somethings busted for sure cause the darn thing lined up before.
I didn't have a chance to fiddle with it then but I'm chomping at the bit now to tear into it. I have about an hour more work to finish off then its on with the covvies, crank up the heaters and let me at it.
I'm not sure what I'm going to find but I'm hoping its not a busted crank pin or worse. I have that queasy feeling guys.
Now would be a good time to pray
ray:
Stay tuned.
Spyug
At lunch time I ran out to the garage to make sure the batteries were good and charged and on a whim I decided to set the cam timing as per the diagram and quadruple check everything yet again. The upper cam marks are tickety boo. When I go to have a peek at the timing mark on the advancer.......it ain't there
. No T mark or pointer....it looks like everything has shifted. Somethings busted for sure cause the darn thing lined up before.I didn't have a chance to fiddle with it then but I'm chomping at the bit now to tear into it. I have about an hour more work to finish off then its on with the covvies, crank up the heaters and let me at it.
I'm not sure what I'm going to find but I'm hoping its not a busted crank pin or worse. I have that queasy feeling guys.
Now would be a good time to pray
ray:Stay tuned.
Spyug
D
doctorgonzo
Guest
Knew it was the cam timing. Fingers crossed for you that it just rotated on you while you were mounting the cams.
Steve
GS Whisperer
Want a quick, easy test to check the crank? :-k
Remove the spark plugs. Put a drinking straw in each hole, resting it on the top of the piston.
Move the crank by hand, watch the straws. Pay particular attention to numbers 1&4.
If they don't hit top and bottom at the same time it will be easy to see.
.
