Terminology

[Normk]

Many problems occur in communications because of different/incorrect use of terms. We used to feel like we were having to grudgingly drag information from many customers because of their use of incorrect terms and seeming reluctance to communicate what were the real concerns.


I propose a list of trade terminology in order to assist those with an interest:

Cranking: the act of causing the engine's crankshaft to revolve by application of electric starting/cranking motor, kick starter, pull start rope.

Starter: usually the electric starting motor whose function is to turn the engine crankshaft to facilitate engine operation. Note that this component has nothing to do with the ignition, fuel delivery system. In that regard, the "starter" does not cause the engine to start running. It simply rotates the engine's elements.

Ignition timing: the firing of the spark at the desired position of piston during the compression stroke. This is unlikely to be your engine's problem despite that the guy at the bar claims it to be. Engines seldom experience issues due to the timing "going off".

Relay: In electrical context this is a device which allows one circuit to switch another circuit. These can be used to allow a small capacity circuit to control a larger capacity one such as the small starter button circuit which avoids the need to run the large battery/starter cable through a huge switch which would need to be positioned for rider access.

A relay can allow multiple controls of a circuit and can be electro-mechanical or electronic in construction.

Starter relay: talk to an automotive, marine or truck technician and they will use the term "starter solenoid". They will understand the term "starter relay" to mean a small relay used in conjunction with the main starter relay. If one understands this, much confusion can be avoided.

Starter relay: a big relay which is used to control/switch the battery to the starting motor for cranking purposes.

Feel free to edit/improve and add. My intent is to share motive mechanical trade usage which may be different than that used in other fields. Post terms which need a definition and someone will fill in. (Hopefully)

Someone will correct if this is a poor way to handle but my suggestion is that we copy and past the list into our own post so that we have a listing without complication of divisions.

HIH

Norm

 

[Steve]

Feel free to edit/improve and add.

Maybe your second Starter Relay should be Starter Solenoid? :-k

Also still trying to figure out what "Her Imperial Highness" (HIH) (<--click link) has to do with any of your posts.

Other than that, good stuff.

Too many times we have descriptions of "my bike won't start". We try to get them to tell us whether it's not cranking, cranking, but not firing or cranking, trying to fire, but not actually starting. Using a common list of terms might help.

.

.

 

[allojohn]

Also still trying to figure out what "Her Imperial Highness" (HIH) (<--click link) has to do with any of your posts.

.

More common is HTH - hope this helps

 

[drivera84]

good idea of a post, sometimes us newbies dont know excatly what is what...

thanks, and subscribed!

 

[Steve]

More common is HTH - hope this helps

It would help MORE if it were typed out, along with the rest of the post.

As you can see, I even put HIH into my Google search bar and posted one of the results. Hardly a conclusive result, hence the question.

Normk, and all the others, please use all the keys on your keyboard.

It is obvious that you are not using a mobile device, based on the amount of content in some of your posts, so "texting" shortcuts aren't really necessary.

.

 

[Normk]

Steve posted:
"Also still trying to figure out what "Her Imperial Highness" (HIH) (<--click link) has to do with any of your posts.

"

I have lots of questions too: "Is a Dairy Queen a milkman in high heels?"

HIH gives me time off to post to web groups so don't wish to displease her. HIH is shorter than Rumpole's SWMBO.

Besides, I'm far more afraid of her than I am of you.

As for the contractions, I find it disquieting that people don't use their names here so some things we will have to live with or move on. Sometimes it is one, sometimes the other.

With that it is time to bring this thread to a close. Oops, thought I was on the basic electrical thread which was stretching out and becoming unwieldy. Scratch the close part! Is there a way to do strike through here?

Norm

 

[Normk]

Steve posted:

"Using a common list of terms might help."

This web group has a better means of using common references than most others I have used so a common list of terms might work more efficiently here than in other groups. It would be interesting to try and see.

It is distracting and drains energy to have to post for clarification and then re-examine the problems. Many very astute people find this to be too much effort after a time. From time to time I like to ask whether people have thought about why professionals (active or retired) so seldom post into their area of expertise. If they do, it typically doesn't last.

Her Royal Highness said I could post this,

Norm

Speaking of "HIH" and I am only leg pulling, maybe it would be easier to put that and my signature into the footer.... My objection to typing it out each time is....well, typing it out each time. It may not seem like much but I have thousands of posts between various web groups and it adds up. Thanks for the prod.

 

[keman]

Several of us use our real names. My user name is short for my full first name.

Hi, my name is Kemaneseandra. Keman for short!

 

[keman]

Cleaned carbs meaning the carbs have been cleaned per Nessism's tutorial.

 

[AJ]

Maybe your second Starter Relay should be Starter Solenoid? :-k

Also still trying to figure out what "Her Imperial Highness" (HIH) (<--click link) has to do with any of your posts.

Other than that, good stuff.

Too many times we have descriptions of "my bike won't start". We try to get them to tell us whether it's not cranking, cranking, but not firing or cranking, trying to fire, but not actually starting. Using a common list of terms might help.

Ok, now I am confused. A starter RELAY is the small, solenoid-driven electric switch. The small current from the starter button energizes a small solenoid, closing a switch to drive high electric current to the starter motor. On a motorcycle, the starter motor is connected by a free-running clutch that only engages when the engine is stopped and the starter motor starts turning. The "sprag" clutch assembly is typically made with 3 large cylindrical bearings that lock in one direction and free run in the opposite direction.

A starter SOLENOID is used on automotive (and aircraft) starters. This combines the relay from the above with a bigger SOLENOID that moves the engagement gear onto the flywheel of the engine. As the gear fully engages, the solenoid also closes the switch for the high current drive, causing the starter motor to turn. The mechanism was the invention of Vincent Bendix, founder of the Bendix Corp., and was a huge advance in automotive technology. The mechanism is still referred to as a "bendix" among aviation mechanics. Now that I think about it, the bendix drive takes a good bit of current itself, and there is usually a separate starter relay for it in cars.

So in this sense, I think most motorcycles have a starter RELAY, but very few modern bikes have a SOLENOID.

For grins, I just checked the longitudinal engined Honda Goldwing and BMW K-bikes, both of which use a sprag clutch. Maybe the Ural or something like that uses a Bendix solenoid drive.

 

[allojohn]

It would help MORE if it were typed out, along with the rest of the post.

As you can see, I even put HIH into my Google search bar and posted one of the results. Hardly a conclusive result, hence the question.

Normk, and all the others, please use all the keys on your keyboard.

It is obvious that you are not using a mobile device, based on the amount of content in some of your posts, so "texting" shortcuts aren't really necessary.

.

Agreed, it took me quite a while to figure out what HTH meant. I had one particular tech support guy who used it all the time.

 

[Graham]

Ok, now I am confused. A starter RELAY is the small, solenoid-driven electric switch. The small current from the starter button energizes a small solenoid, closing a switch to drive high electric current to the starter motor. On a motorcycle, the starter motor is connected by a free-running clutch that only engages when the engine is stopped and the starter motor starts turning. The "sprag" clutch assembly is typically made with 3 large cylindrical bearings that lock in one direction and free run in the opposite direction.

A starter SOLENOID is used on automotive (and aircraft) starters. This combines the relay from the above with a bigger SOLENOID that moves the engagement gear onto the flywheel of the engine. As the gear fully engages, the solenoid also closes the switch for the high current drive, causing the starter motor to turn. The mechanism was the invention of Vincent Bendix, founder of the Bendix Corp., and was a huge advance in automotive technology. The mechanism is still referred to as a "bendix" among aviation mechanics. Now that I think about it, the bendix drive takes a good bit of current itself, and there is usually a separate starter relay for it in cars.

So in this sense, I think most motorcycles have a starter RELAY, but very few modern bikes have a SOLENOID.

For grins, I just checked the longitudinal engined Honda Goldwing and BMW K-bikes, both of which use a sprag clutch. Maybe the Ural or something like that uses a Bendix solenoid drive.

The automotive/motorcycle term solenoid refers to the magnetic switch wired between the starter and battery, whether it is mounted on the starter or not. Call a motorcycle parts supplier and tell him you need a solenoid and you will get the magnetic switch wired between the starter and battery.

The automotive/motorcycle term starter relay refers to a magnetic switch used to activate a starter solenoid. Like your wife?s sportster 1200.

 

[Normk]

Ajay is correct from a technical standpoint however Graham nailed the trades definition. The term "starter relay" appears in many OEM (Original Equipment Manufacture/Manufacturer) shop manuals and parts diagrams, but as Graham explained, unless one is careful with useage, one amy receive the wrong item.

This is the reason I tried to differentiate between the trades useage of the two terms.

Wondering if someone would be willing to handle the compilation of the terms? I simply do not have the motivation to do the proofing and clerical but rather prefer to try to contribute on the technical side. When I try to do both my enthusiasm dries up.

It might be useful to add definitions for;

Bolt
Nut
Capscrew
and other common fasteners.

If someone doesn't get to it first, I will try to get to it tomorrow.

 

[Graham]

CDI = electronic control box for ignition system
Igniter = electronic control box for ignition system
Module = electronic control box for ignition system

 

[Normk]

Module: any electronic "black box". Module is a generic term for components when there is no need for more detail or an attempt to sound more educated. I like to use the term, although "transducer" is pretty cool. I only use "marmalade" when wishing to sound really sophisicated.

Funny though, when I try to joke around another term usually pops into mind.

Mayonaise: a white, gooey mixture of oil and water. This may be a mixture of edible oil and water for flavoring food or the gooey slop found in engines which have insufficient temperature and internal ventilation to clear moisture from the crankcase.

API: American Petroleum Institute- the body who designate oil service ratings such as CD, CD, SF, SM, etc.

SAE: Society of Automotive Engineers- the body who designate oil viscosity ratings, (some) screw threads, (some) hydraulic fittings, etc.

CDI = electronic control box for ignition system
Igniter = electronic control box for ignition system
Module = electronic control box for ignition system

 

[Normk]

Constant duty relay: This is an important consideration because only some relays are intended to be in operation for extended periods of time. Most "Bosch type" relays are constant duty but starter solenoids (relay) are not. If one selects an intermittent or non-constant duty relay for such use as headlight, main power, etc. the relay will burn out or melt and fail.

Typical horn relay service does not require a constant duty so recovering a horn relay for other use may not be ideal.



By the way, make a trip to your local "Pick-a-Part" self serve auto wrecker and buy a handfull of relays for projects. While you're there, get some bulbs with sockets and buy a wiring harness off any car.

The wiring harness can often be purchased for a few dollars and is a gold mine of color-coded wires, connectors and handy stuff. Rather than wiring all your accessories with the same white, red, blue and black wires from spools of wire, select a blue with green tracer for one, red with yellow for anther, etc. Record the colors on your wiring diagram and life is easier.

 

[Normk]

We need to keep this going as terminology confusions cause a lot of problems.

Signal relay- in the trade this is a conventional relay which is not the signal flasher unit. The maker's shop manual often uses this term so it causes confusion.

Signal flasher- the blinker unit which causes the lights to flash. While technically a "relay" the trade does not refer to it in this manner. The confusion resulting will be similar to the "starter relay" versus "starter solenoid" one.

 

[tatu]

A starter SOLENOID is used on automotive (and aircraft) starters. This combines the relay from the above with a bigger SOLENOID that moves the engagement gear onto the flywheel of the engine. As the gear fully engages, the solenoid also closes the switch for the high current drive, causing the starter motor to turn. The mechanism was the invention of Vincent Bendix, founder of the Bendix Corp., and was a huge advance in automotive technology. The mechanism is still referred to as a "bendix" among aviation mechanics. Now that I think about it, the bendix drive takes a good bit of current itself, and there is usually a separate starter relay for it in cars.


For grins, I just checked the longitudinal engined Honda Goldwing and BMW K-bikes, both of which use a sprag clutch. Maybe the Ural or something like that uses a Bendix solenoid drive.

What you have described here is a pre engaged starter, and is not a Bendix. These are the norm these days.
A Bendix starter has the mechanism of a gear that slides on a spiral that throws the starter gear into the ring gear as it begins its rotation and is then pushed back by a spring and the flywheel ring gear as it accelerates past the starter speed.
Hope this helps.

 

[Normk]

In automotive and truck repair trades, a "Bendix" refers to any starter drive although this does not apply to bikes in my experience as they lack this type of mechanism.

Someone mentioned the term "Sprag clutch" as referring to the type of overrunning clutch found on most modern motorcycles. In trade terms "Sprag clutch" is understood as an overrunning clutch which is installed within an assembly however, just so everyone knows, these are roller type overrunning clutches. This type of clutch is common within automatic transmissions and some older type overdrive units. A "Sprag" is an elongated dog which is placed at an angle within the clearance between two drive members. They are not found in many applications today as roller clutches have replaced them but the terminology has remained. I don't recall the term as being used in the motorcycle repair field but someone may have. Harley is a good possibility as they have a different history than the others. Haven't worked in a Harley shop but have sold tools into some....

All that and a couple of bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Mickie D's.

Fun knocking these terms around and who knows but something may be useful to someone....

What you have described here is a pre engaged starter, and is not a Bendix. These are the norm these days.
A Bendix starter has the mechanism of a gear that slides on a spiral that throws the starter gear into the ring gear as it begins its rotation and is then pushed back by a spring and the flywheel ring gear as it accelerates past the starter speed.
Hope this helps.

 

[Normk]

Screw: a threaded fastener which goes into a structure.

Bolt: a threaded fastener which is used with a nut.

Note that the same fastener can be either a bolt or a screw depending on application. The reason for the "can" reservation is that fasteners such as carriage bolts are not used without nuts.

Most non-technicians seem to believe that a bolt is a bigger fastener with a hex, Allen, Torx, type head while a screw is a small fastener turned by some "screwdriver" drive such as slot or Phillips. Not so. A 1" hex head capscrew is not small. The "cap" portion of the name means that it has a head larger than the shank.