Testing Electrical System Again

[cowboyup3371]

There are alot of threads on here for doing electrical tests but please be patient with me as I'm nervous about doing this:


Because I found the bare headlight wire, melted fuse, and unplugged wire in the gauge harness, I'm concerned now about the quality of my electrical system especially knowing every thing was running properly up to the day I had welding done.

For those I haven't spoken with privately on this matter, I had a new bracket welded to the frame of my bike for my airbox. Before the guy began the welding, I remove the battery from the bike altogether and then we covered all electrical components with heavy burlap bags. It was after this was done that I found the issue with the starter and the items I found above. Everything was running top-knotch the day before the welding. Although several have told me the welding had nothing to do with my issues, I'm not totally convinced. I don't blame the guy as he did ask me if everything would be okay before starting. However, I want to make sure I don't have something else wrong here before I complete the repairs on the starter.

If I tried to perform the ignition testing procedures listed on Basscliff's Electrical Odd's and End's Page, would I be able to do so knowing the starter is out of the bike? Obviously the engine wouldn't turn over but the electrical systems should still perform the same, correct?


Or should i wait until I get the parts for the starter and then test?


Either way, steps 11 through 14 in the testing procedures confuse me. Am I connecting one lead to the connector on the harness side or on the signal generator side? On the ignitor test, is that done with the connectors unplugged or by inserting the probes into the back of the connector on the ignitor side?


I haven't found good pictures of the steps to do this; does anyone have some from when they did the testing? Sometimes I need to be shown/see pictures and then perform it myself before I can do things like this.

Thanks for the help; I really am trying to learn.

 

[tom203]

cowboyup said...

"Either way, steps 11 through 14 in the testing procedures confuse me. Am I connecting one lead to the connector on the harness side or on the signal generator side? On the ignitor test, is that done with the connectors unplugged or by inserting the probes into the back of the connector on the ignitor side?"

So you have checked out the resistances of the signal coils and they look OK? the liitle battery test just duplicates the signal pulse that the signal coils send to ignitor- with the connector disconnected. You could also leave stuff connected, turn ignition and kill switch on and flick the tip of a small screwdriver across signal coil face for 1 and 4 (this duplicates what the little tab on rotor does when it spins)- doing this should cause plugs 1 and 4 to fire. repeat for signal coil 2 and 3 to check for spark on 2 and 3.

 

[Steve]

For those who, like me, don't know those steps, click HERE to see them.

11. Locate the igniter and disconnect the plug with the blue and green wires coming from the signal generator (pickup) at the right bottom of the engine. Test the resistance across these wires coming from the signal generator pickup coils, it should be approximately 250 - 360 ohm. If this is in order you have proved the pickups and the wires to be good.

You are testing the pickup coils, so connect your meter to the wires that go to the coils.

12.The little back box or igniter is now tested as follows. With the ignition on, kill switch on, test for 12 Volt DC between the orange/white and the black/white wires in the plug going into the igniter. This proves that it is getting the correct voltage.

You are testing the input voltage, so you have to put your meter leads where it will be coming from, or the main harness side of the connector.

13.The next step is to prove whether the igniter is powering your coils. Remove all 4 spark plugs and connect the HT lead caps to a spark plug #1, #2, #3 and #4 which is grounded and located to enable you to see the spark. Ensure all the connector plugs are back in, except the one with the green and blue wires from the signal generator.

Shouldn't be much confusion here.

14. To simulate the small voltage generated by the pickup coil, prepare an ordinary 1.5V dry cell with two wires red for positive and black for negative. Connect the negative black wire from the dry cell to the blue wire on the connector plug going into the igniter. Switch on the ignition and kill switch to power the igniter and briefly touch the red wire from the dry cell positive to the green wire connector going into the igniter. You should see a spark on plugs #1 and #4 when you touch the wire and on #2 and #3 when you remove the wire. If this works your igniter is in a working condition.

I don't see any confusion here, either.

.

 

[Killer2600]

I know one thing is for sure, I've never seen any kind of welding unplug wires before.

I think this is all coincidence, welding typically poses no risk to high current motors i.e. starters. Electronics are the ones at risk since they don't tolerate voltage spikes so well.

 

[cowboyup3371]

cowboyup said...

"Either way, steps 11 through 14 in the testing procedures confuse me. Am I connecting one lead to the connector on the harness side or on the signal generator side? On the ignitor test, is that done with the connectors unplugged or by inserting the probes into the back of the connector on the ignitor side?"

So you have checked out the resistances of the signal coils and they look OK? the liitle battery test just duplicates the signal pulse that the signal coils send to ignitor- with the connector disconnected. You could also leave stuff connected, turn ignition and kill switch on and flick the tip of a small screwdriver across signal coil face for 1 and 4 (this duplicates what the little tab on rotor does when it spins)- doing this should cause plugs 1 and 4 to fire. repeat for signal coil 2 and 3 to check for spark on 2 and 3.

I have not done any of these tests because I am unsure if I can without the starter in place. Should I wait until after I rebuild it to perform any of my tests?

For those who, like me, don't know those steps, click HERE to see them.


You are testing the pickup coils, so connect your meter to the wires that go to the coils.



You are testing the input voltage, so you have to put your meter leads where it will be coming from, or the main harness side of the connector.

Shouldn't be much confusion here.
I don't see any confusion here, either.

.

Steve, some of my confusion came from my first question - do I need the starter in place to do any of this? Secondly, am I disconnecting the entire connector to attach these wires or am I removing only those terminals I need from the connector and leaving everything else in place?

I know one thing is for sure, I've never seen any kind of welding unplug wires before.

I think this is all coincidence, welding typically poses no risk to high current motors i.e. starters. Electronics are the ones at risk since they don't tolerate voltage spikes so well.

Sorry, I have a hard time accepting it's a coincidence when so many things went wrong all at the same time.

 

[Killer2600]

Sorry, I have a hard time accepting it's a coincidence when so many things went wrong all at the same time.

And that's ok, but if you can explain how welding on the bike would unplug wires you go right ahead, I'm all ears.

 

[cowboyup3371]

Wow, you really missed the point of my question Killer. Thanks for the help.

 

[GateKeeper]

I don't see where he says that "welding unplugged wires" I think what cowboyup3371 is saying, is that during the welding, something happened to the electrical system, as though somehow, an electrical current went through the wires, and shorted out, melted stuff and caused issues.....

at least this is how I am reading what he is posting, maybe I am wrong....

in my scenario, it would only do any of this damage if he (the welder guy) used your electrical system for his grounding clip, and even then I doubt it, but it could cause the high voltage from the welder to go through your wires and such and cause some trouble.

I think it's a coincidence, and you just have some flaky wire somewhere, and it's causing you your issues, it might even be the starter you are repairing.

and I think you can run all the tests even if your starter is not in it's place

 

[Steve]

Steve, some of my confusion came from my first question - do I need the starter in place to do any of this?

Are you testing the starter? No.

Does the engine need to be running? No.

Why would the starter need to be in place?

Secondly, am I disconnecting the entire connector to attach these wires or am I removing only those terminals I need from the connector and leaving everything else in place?

OK, I can see where it might be confusing.

Pull the connector apart. (That is not mentioned in the tests.) Do the test as indicated.

Does your connector have two or three wires in it? All of mine only have two, and since you are putting meter leads on all TWO of them, why bother pulling wires out of the connector?

Even if there were three wires (I think that's only on bikes with points), you would pull the connector and test only the two wires necessary.

These are all static tests, so you are only testing things with the engine off and the bike not moving. No need to have EVERYTHING powered up.

.

 

[Killer2600]

Wow, you really missed the point of my question Killer. Thanks for the help.

Your welcome, glad I could help

Seriously though, the other posts answered your questions on testing the ignition system so why would I repeat it.

I don't see where he says that "welding unplugged wires" I think what cowboyup3371 is saying, is that during the welding, something happened to the electrical system, as though somehow, an electrical current went through the wires, and shorted out, melted stuff and caused issues.....

He didn't state it directly but rather indirectly. Before the welding his bike was perfect as he puts it and after the welding he found a bare headlight wire, melted fuse, and unplugged wire in the gauge harness. Also to boot his starter isn't working although exact issue/symptoms on that are not listed.

My take is this is all coincidence, and the bare headlight wire at some time touched a ground, and blew the fuse. The unplugged wire was already unplugged or barely plugged in to begin with. As with the starter, I don't know - all I know is he pulled it out of the bike. And the reason why this being blamed on the welding is from hearing welding horror stories about fried computers, bulbs, and fuses.

The odds state there is a chance I could be completely wrong and that welding alone did all this damage but those odds are small so if I was a betting man....

 

[posplayr]

I have welded the upper mount on a rear shock (after the bolt broke off due to a poor weld by the PO). I used a burlap welding apron along with some pieces of sheet metal to keep the sparks off everything. I also disconnected the battery. The other precaution I made was to attached the ground clamp directly to the mounting stud so that the welding current never really went through the frame only the mounting bolt.

You certainly would not want the clamp on one end of the bike so that it forces the large currents to run through your frame creating potential differential currents through your grounds with associated high voltage drops. This could create ground currents through the harness if it was not also diconnected.

 

[cowboyup3371]

I have welded the upper mount on a rear shock (after the bolt broke off due to a poor weld by the PO). I used a burlap welding apron along with some pieces of sheet metal to keep the sparks off everything. I also disconnected the battery. The other precaution I made was to attached the ground clamp directly to the mounting stud so that the welding current never really went through the frame only the mounting bolt.

You certainly would not want the clamp on one end of the bike so that it forces the large currents to run through your frame creating potential differential currents through your grounds with associated high voltage drops. This could create ground currents through the harness if it was not also diconnected.

Could you explain this a little more? What things can happen and what fixes it, removing all connections?

When he grounded his welder, he did so on the top frame bar behind the seat brackets. I'm told this is the way it is supposed to be.