Time to test/repair/replace the starter?

[cowboyup3371]

So I ran back outside to take this thing apart and much easier than I thought. I'm not sure if I need to remove additional items for checking things but can (circlip pliers are busted so I can't pull that off).

Here are some pictures as well as a short video of what I saw.

End Cap

And the video



I'm assuming I need new brushes; anything else obvious to anyone?

 

[GateKeeper]

clean this up with some emery cloth

clean up the rest, and put it back together

brushes seem to be still useable, in my opinion, unless that one that is half of the other is because it's further in, but it seems to be all in good order

.

 

[TooManyToys]

I'd pull the starter apart before I would be ordering parts. Sometimes it can be something as simple as oily brushes and a dirty commutator. The next step could be brushes, maybe bushings, but the big issue you need to look for is if the magnets have some loose. Those can be fixed too, just look for the thread on here.

Looks like oily brushes and dirty commutator. Years of oil vapor taking it's toll. Use electrical cleaner on all the parts, lightly polish the commutator, and the lack of deep grooving is telling me the brushes may not be worn. Re-clean the commutator after polishing it with 360-400 grit. If you have access to the service manual it should give a limit to the brushes length so you can check them.

 

[cowboyup3371]

Looks like oily brushes and dirty commutator. Years of oil vapor taking it's toll. Use electrical cleaner on all the parts, lightly polish the commutator, and the lack of deep grooving is telling me the brushes may not be worn. Re-clean the commutator after polishing it with 360-400 grit. If you have access to the service manual it should give a limit to the brushes length so you can check them.

It says the brush length should be a limit of 6mm and the commutator undercut is 0.2mm. I think I understand the brush length is the total length of the piece that's sticking out there. But what does the commutator undercut mean?

 

[rustybronco]

Commutator undercut is the depth of the cut between two commutator (copper) bars. If you were to turn down the commutator until the insulator and the copper bars were of the same height, you would then need to 'under cut' the mica until it's again below the height of the copper segments.

Under cutting can be done at home by taking a hack saw blade and grinding away the sides of the teeth until the blade will fit between two commutator bars, cutting only the insulator.

 

[TheCafeKid]

eh...Not to sound like the harbinger of death or anything, but could you bumpstart the bike? Or did you try to turn the motor over by hand?

Im not an electrical whiz by ANY stretch of the imagination, but if it works (spins) outside of the engine, why didnt it spin INSIDE of the engine. My limited understanding of electrical motors (and PLEASE feel free to enlighten me if im completely wrong, which is likely the case) is that they provide nearly instant torque, meaning they dont have to "spin up" to get the most out of em. My point is, if that is true, why would it spin outside, and not inside the motor? If its getting the power it needs outside, would it not be getting it inside as well??? Or am I way way way needing a lesson (and please do teach me...)

 

[cowboyup3371]

Josh,
I did not bump start it but I successfully turned the motor last night by hand after seeing the starter turned on its own. I am probably going to remove the stator cover tonight to see if something there is busted. There's just a little voice that is telling me something is wrong someplace still.

 

[tom203]

Josh,
I did not bump start it but I successfully turned the motor last night by hand after seeing the starter turned on its own. I am probably going to remove the stator cover tonight to see if something there is busted. There's just a little voice that is telling me something is wrong someplace still.

Yeah. your starter motor looked OK to me and if it spun up quick out of bike, I think there's something else happenning.

 

[Steve]

My limited understanding of electrical motors (and PLEASE feel free to enlighten me if im completely wrong, which is likely the case) is that they provide nearly instant torque, meaning they dont have to "spin up" to get the most out of em. ... Or am I way way way needing a lesson (and please do teach me...)

You are (mostly) correct, sir.

Most electric motors do provide maximum torque at zero rpm.
However, in the case of a "slightly less-than-perfect" motor, that maximum torque will be considerably less than it should be.
That would allow it to spin with no load on it, but, when asked to turrn the crank, it falls flat on its proverbial face.

.

 

[Nessism]

That starter motor looks good inside, particularly the commutator - hardly any wear. One of the brushes doesn't stick out as far as the other. What's up with that? Could it be binding and stuck in the holder or just worn? If the brushes are not overly worn I'd throw that bad boy back together, after cleaning with contact cleaner that is. Anyone know if the bushing needs to be lubed, and if so with what? Common grease?

 

[cowboyup3371]

Thank you to everyone for your advice on helping me here. I cleaned stuff up as best I could and by doing a push test on the one brush that Ed refers to, I think I'll replace them. Essentially, it acts like it sticks and doesn't spring back very far. Looking inside after trying to clean in that holder, I think the spring isn't pushing it very well and it seems to catch on the holder itself. There's a lot of what I would call corrosion especially up under the brush slots. I also should replace both orings and maybe that oil seal for my sanity's sake if nothing else.

Now it's time to look at the budget and see if I can do it Friday or if I have to wait as I also received a phone call from Helena that the truck's alternator kicked the bucket. The shop was willing to bill me the labor but the parts killed some of my savings for the move.

I'll update this thread as I go.

 

[Redman]

....
..Here are some pictures as well as a short video of what I saw.
....

.....
I'm assuming I need new brushes; anything else obvious to anyone?

As others have said, the commutator doesnt look worn at all. Is even and is flat. Maybe you can clean it up a bit.

And brushes do not look short at all. SOmetimes when starter isnt proforming well the brushes are worn right down to the that wire. And with them being short then the spring has lost some tension. But your do not look short at all. I wonder if they had already been replaced at some point.

But, yah, see what you ar saying about the plate being corroded. And maybe that why brush doesnt move smoothly.

No, do not put grease on it. Grease will collect the brush dust and jam up worse.

Maybe want to get a brush and plate kit, just so get new plate with new brush holders.

I dont know, I havent ever done it, but wonder if you can get another turn on that spring on the brush that doesn move smoothly. Brushes them selves look okay.

.

 

[ekabil]

Hey there, not tryin to jack your thread, but I also am about to open my starter due to slow cranking. I have a gs1100glz, and if our bikes are similar, can I ask you how difficult it was to get the starter out? In the manual it says to remove tank, airbox, carbs, and in this thread someone said can chain tensioner. The carbs and all I can manage, but I don't know what a cam chain tensioner is. Is it possible to remove the starter motor without removing anything else? Anything I should keep in mind so I don't do any damage while taking it out?

 

[cowboyup3371]

I don't know about your bike but I would remove the carbs only because on MY bike the space is very small to do any work.

The cam chain tensioner will be that funny looking knob on the back of the engine that controls how well the cam chain stays in place. I thought I'd have to remove it (Clymers says to) but a universal joint adapter on the socket end of my ratchet let me get in there. Once the screws loosened up, my starter slid right out but I've heard others say you need a rubber mallet and a piece of wood to help knock it free.

 

[cowboyup3371]

As others have said, the commutator doesnt look worn at all. Is even and is flat. Maybe you can clean it up a bit.

And brushes do not look short at all. SOmetimes when starter isnt proforming well the brushes are worn right down to the that wire. And with them being short then the spring has lost some tension. But your do not look short at all. I wonder if they had already been replaced at some point.

But, yah, see what you ar saying about the plate being corroded. And maybe that why brush doesnt move smoothly.

No, do not put grease on it. Grease will collect the brush dust and jam up worse.

Maybe want to get a brush and plate kit, just so get new plate with new brush holders.

I dont know, I havent ever done it, but wonder if you can get another turn on that spring on the brush that doesn move smoothly. Brushes them selves look okay.

.

Thanks Redman. With the way my plate is designed, I'll get one brush already attached to a new one so I'm buying the second one as well. I'm thinking of also ordering new orings for the starter and the oil seal that sits in there. My thinking being I'm in there so might as well replace them. It will mean the bike is down longer than it could be but I'll also get new airbox boot clamps and oil filter since it's about due for a change.

 

[cowboyup3371]

Parts are In

Parts are In

Yea:clap:. Received my starter parts today finally but it's too hot to get out to the garage right now. I'll probably bring the housing inside later and put things together in the comfort of my AC. Fortunately tomorrow is supposed to only be in the low 90s so I'll install it and test then.

I'm itching to get this back on the road and really hope I don't have any more problems.

When I ordered everything, i didn't realize the plate would come with springs attached to it so if anyone needs new springs let me know and I'll drop them in the mail for you.

 

[cableguy]

Save all the extra in case YOU need them. Of course if you do that you'll never need them, but nothing wrong with that! You did check all of the wiring, right?

 

[cowboyup3371]

Save all the extra in case YOU need them. Of course if you do that you'll never need them, but nothing wrong with that! You did check all of the wiring, right?

Yea, I ran through some of it and will do more tomorrow.

And you're right, I'll probably not need them until I get rid of 'em.:lol:

 

[cowboyup3371]

Ugh

Ugh

Just when things seem to go right, they go left on me.

Brought the starter inside to rebuild it as it's only 106* outside per my thermostat inside the house (probably actually only about 100 but who cares right?). And everything seemed to start off fine.

Got the commutator inside the housing:

Opened up the new brush holder (much better tension on the springs):

Put everything in the rear together:

Then started to button it up when I started having problems with the screws not lining up correctly. I fix that seeing the brush holder wasn't seated correctly in the housing, started to tighten down the screws and hear a crack. Before I heard this I noticed the bolt that should come through the housing was crooked but figured it would straighten out once everything tighted down. Yea, no.

Here's what I found:

The broken plastic top hat bush #2 busted. So I guess i'll be going to Autozone to find some sort of make do replacement.

 

[cableguy]

Well at least enjoy the A/C.

When I had mine apart I noticed I had to fiddle with it quite a bit to make everything line up and fit together so the 2 case pieces snapped in, and the threaded holes lined up. Careful you dont ding up the plate that holds the brushes and make sure you can turn the screws by hand at least 3 full turns so you know they aren't going to strip when you use the screwdriver. Good luck!