Todius Treads

[bwringer]

i just installed a set of Avon Distanzia dual-sport tires on my VX800. The goal is better traction for exploring dirt and gravel roads.

A nice side effect is that they look TOTALLY bitchin'.

I'm posting this here because it's actually easier to find good dual-sport rubber in many GS sizes. The VX800 has an oddball 18" front wheel that made it a royal pain to find anything that fit. I ended up with a rear tire in the correct size, but reversed for front use. This is what was recommended by the tire manufacturer.

The VX800 is sort of my main commuter/beater bike, especially as the weather gets nastier. I'm trying to keep the GS850 out of the salt this year because it ended up with a ton of corrosion last winter.

I don't have any illusions of mud bogging or snow racing with a simple change of tires -- I just wanted a little more traction for exploring the dirt roads in Brown County.


I'll be changing the front fender shortly for one that sits about half an inch further away from the wheel. This one is pretty tight, and it took a little finagling to get fender tweaked around so I could the tire stuffed in there. The D/S tire's knobs make it a bit taller than the normal tire.

Sorry about the wonky color -- my camera didn't know what to do with the garage lighting.

Yeah, I know it's filthy. Shut up.

 

[Dogma]

Interesting. What's the trade-off? Do those big block treads make it less grippy in the corners?

 

[Nessism]

Looks interesting. Hope that radiator has a gravel guard.

 

[80sGSfan]

beater?

beater?

Looks real cool! Let us know how they perform...your VX appears to be in real nice shape - it's a shame you've made a beater outta her, but I can understand! I'd say I abuse the VX the most too...

 

[first timer]

Looks real cool! Let us know how they perform...your VX appears to be in real nice shape - it's a shame you've made a beater outta her, but I can understand! I'd say I abuse the VX the most too...

He got bored with it and decided to throw it down the road on the left side.

 

[bwringer]

Looks interesting. Hope that radiator has a gravel guard.

It has a grille, but I do plan to make something more robust to protect against gravel -- probably a louvered aluminum assemblage of some sort, if I can find some sort of raw material. There's little danger of overheating, even if I restrict airflow a bit -- the thing has too much cooling capacity, really, especially when temps are below freezing. I covered the radiator with duct tape this morning and it's still barely lukewarm.

When I install the fleaBay fender, I'm also going to bolt on a nice big ugly gross mud flap.

Looks real cool! Let us know how they perform...your VX appears to be in real nice shape - it's a shame you've made a beater outta her, but I can understand! I'd say I abuse the VX the most too...

He got bored with it and decided to throw it down the road on the left side.

Yeah, it's a bit ugly on the left side after my cooking grease biff last year -- the tank damage is covered by the tank bag, and you can't see the banged-up muffler and centerstand in the photo. The forks are also very slightly tweaked, although if I rotate the fork legs in the clamps to the right position, they work fine.

My broken left leg is also a bit uglier and not working right, so I guess that's fair.

The crash also obliterated the original instruments, headlight, and front wheel, but the eBay gods were kind to me and I didn't have much else to do for a couple of weeks...

 

[bwringer]

Interesting. What's the trade-off? Do those big block treads make it less grippy in the corners?

Don't know yet -- it actually feels pretty normal on the ride to work, but generally railing corners isn't a good idea when it's below freezing, and especially with new, slippery tires.

If I can find a couple of nearby gravel roads, I should be able to scuff 'em in quickly...

By all accounts, the Distanzias are excellent road tires. The big blocks shouldn't squirm much.


On the front, I suspect the deep tread blocks may show some unusual wear as the miles pile up.

 

[bwringer]

Today, I went for an extended pavement, gravel, and dirt road ride in Brown County and environs.

I gotta tell you, much of the time I had no idea where I was. The maps I had bore little to no relation to reality, and when you leave the state highway system, road markings are haphazard to nonexistent, especially on the tiny dirt roads.

The Distanzias handled dirt, gravel, and even a couple of huge icy mud puddles with aplomb. I had far more traction on gravel than pure street tires, and in dirt and mud, there's simply no comparison.

Best of all, pavement traction is excellent as well. Obviously, I'm not going to push all that hard when it's just above freezing, but the tread blocks didn't squirm or walk at all, and everything was just as smooth and predictable as it was with street tires.

A few photos:

I really should have gotten a couple of photos of some of the icy mud puddles I slogged through. They were so huge, you couldn't go around -- just straight through.

 

[marvinsc]

Tell me you are gonna at least wash the poor Lucky bike soon.

 

[bwringer]

Well, it's raining and I'm leaving for work in a few minutes...

 

[Sunburn]

I ended up with a rear tire in the correct size, but reversed for front use. This is what was recommended by the tire manufacturer.

Sorry about the wonky color -- my camera didn't know what to do with the garage lighting.

I've spent a few sets of Duel sport tires on the road they stick good.

It was the dirt that gave me trouble....

I don't like the reverse mount on that front.


Wet ride water flow issues. I would use caution during the first time in the rain and get a feel for it.

 

[TheCafeKid]

I've spent a few sets of Duel sport tires on the road they stick good.

It was the dirt that gave me trouble....

I don't like the reverse mount on that front.


Wet ride water flow issues. I would use caution during the first time in the rain and get a feel for it.

There are ALOT of tire companies that use A single tread for front and back, you simply reverse the mounting. RoadRiders i do believe are ANOTHER that do this, depending on the sizes you need. The only danger is because of the ply set up, NOT the tread or water pushing ability. However, Avon, and many other companies who do this, use modern materials, and the danger that used to be common with reversing ply tires is not as prevelant as it used to be. I really wouldnt worry a hair on my head about it to be honest.

 

[bwringer]

There are ALOT of tire companies that use A single tread for front and back, you simply reverse the mounting. RoadRiders i do believe are ANOTHER that do this, depending on the sizes you need. The only danger is because of the ply set up, NOT the tread or water pushing ability. However, Avon, and many other companies who do this, use modern materials, and the danger that used to be common with reversing ply tires is not as prevelant as it used to be. I really wouldnt worry a hair on my head about it to be honest.

Agreed -- they work perfectly fine in the rain. The front tire on my GS850 (100/90-19) is a front/rear combination design RoadRider. There's an arrow pointing one way for use in front, the other way for use in the rear.

I did learn that mud in the brakes plus rain can make things interesting -- once the pads scraped the front rotor clean, it suddenly grabbed a little too well and the front skidded along for about a foot at the first stop light. No harm done, and a valuable lesson in this adventure riding thing was learned.

I have no illusions that tires will transform a heavy shaftie into a motocrosser, but I was very impressed with the increase in traction and confidence on dirt roads, dirt, and mud -- better than I had hoped, actually.

 

[Sunburn]

I like having natural forces working for me. I never tried that situation before and it would take some experience before I would be confident. I?m sure it would work but will it work just as well? Why cut the treads in any direction then? I have ridden in some bad weather many of times and the confidence in my tires get me home safely.

I personally would stick to combinations that are designed to work not combinations designed to save production costs and increase universality to sell tires. I have no special knowledge other then I have to have confidence in my equipment so I don?t hold back when it counts.


I?m sure some people may laugh at my ignorance but when the going get rough I?ll still be upright even if it?s only a mental advantage.

 

[Sunburn]

I have no illusions that tires will transform a heavy shaftie into a motocrosser, but I was very impressed with the increase in traction and confidence on dirt roads, dirt, and mud -- better than I had hoped, actually.

I think it's a gerat Idea. I would not mind having something like that for the many fire roads here in SO-CAL. These days you have to have a regeisterd bike to go off road. Green stickered are not allowed on most fire roads/backroads in the mountians.

 

[Shaughn]

...Why cut the treads in any direction then?...

The only reason for directional treads is for water evacuation. Even backwards, the channels are better than tread patters with no vertical channels that lock the water in, leading to hydroplaning. The classic Wrangler Radial that was stock on 80's Jeeps was a good example of this problem. Unless you give the water a place to go, the tire rides up on it, instead of through it. Seeing directional tires mounted backwards on a car still drives me nuts though, and I see it everyday.

There are ALOT of tire companies that use A single tread for front and back, you simply reverse the mounting. RoadRiders i do believe are ANOTHER that do this, depending on the sizes you need. The only danger is because of the ply set up, NOT the tread or water pushing ability. However, Avon, and many other companies who do this, use modern materials, and the danger that used to be common with reversing ply tires is not as prevelant as it used to be. I really wouldnt worry a hair on my head about it to be honest.

Even though I'm well versed on anything radial, unless it's a trailer or Ag tire, I don't know much about bias tires.
Why is it a problem mounting two rear tires in the same direction? Is this all about steering pull?

 

[bwringer]

It looks like a few people are still stuck in car-based thinking. The wide, flat tires on cars can and do hydroplane in standing water at street speeds, and the tread design makes a difference.

The contact patch on a motorcycle tire is so narrow that the tread design makes little to no difference in wet traction at street speeds. The tire compound has a lot more to do with wet traction than anything.

If you're battling heroically for the lead in the MotoGP at 150+mph, then yes, you need some sort of tread voids so the water can escape, and the shape/direction of these makes a little difference.

Basically, it's extremely difficult to get a motorcycle tire to hydroplane, unless you combine very high speeds with very deep water, and little to no tread.

In the case of the rear Avon Distanzia I've mounted on the front of my VX800, there are plenty of void areas for water to escape, even very deep water, and the shape or direction of these simply makes absolutely no difference for street riding in the wet below 200mph.

However, the direction of the tread blocks DOES make a difference in soft surface riding, which is why I followed the manufacturer's advice and mounted the rear tire backwards on the front.

Look at it this way: the front tire needs to develop traction to stop the bike. The rear tire primarily needs to develop traction to propel the bike.

Now let's imagine a rear tire propelling a tiny motorcycle to the right side of the screen in soft dirt: ===>

You'd want the rear tire to leave tracks like this:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Why? Imagine the rear tire starting to slip. The "V" shapes push dirt to the outside. The untouched dirt on both sides of the tire is available to resist this push.
xxxxxxxxxxx
< < < < < <
xxxxxxxxxxx

If the rear tire were mounted the other way around, only the dirt in the center of the tread would be available to resist the push:
x>x>x>x>x>x>x>x>


Now let's think about the front tire. Our intrepid tiny rider is once again headed to the right side of the screen, when suddenly a huge smiley appears and he needs to stop. The tracks should look like this:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Again, the dirt (xxxxx) on both sides of the tread is available to increase braking traction.

With the tire flipped to the same direction as the rear, only the dirt in the center is available to resist the force:
<x<x<x<x<x<x<x< x<x<x<



Keep in mind that on a pure dirt tire, the tread pattern is usually not directional -- it's made up of square or rectangular blocks, since the rear is used for far more braking in the dirt, and noise and street traction are also not considerations. On some ATV tires, you'll see a tractor-style chevron tread.

Overlapping chevrons, larger, less flexible tread blocks, and other differences are compromises designed to help a streetable tire make less noise, last longer, and work better on the street. The Distanzias are usually considered about 80% a street tire, 20% dirt.

If I took my rear Distanzia (the one that's mounted on the front) and flipped it around so it's rotating as if it were a rear, it would make no difference at all on the street, even in the rain. However, this could compromise braking on soft surfaces. So it's mounted "backwards" to give me the best possible braking traction whatever the circumstance.


The issue of ply separation (the idea that the tire will unravel if it rotates the wrong direction) is simply not a concern with modern motorcycle tires at street speeds. It could happen with some poorly made tires many years ago, but it's not an issue these days.


One issue that will probably come up as the miles go by is front tire wear -- the tread blocks in the front are much deeper than a street tire, so I'm curious to see how they will wear at the edges, and what sort of scalloping I'll end up with. I have no idea how that will all work out, but I'm keeping the front air pressure on the high side to attempt to minimize scalloping.

 

[silverhorse47]

This is such a great description. Thanks.
S.

 

[nisom512]

poor baby its to bad she has no clue how dirty she is going to be in just a few posts

 

[Flaggo60]

Installing the latest Dualsport tires on my 650G is a thought that I've toyed with from time to time. I do wonder that the use of the tires on the street will lead to a few slippery moments though and thats where I spend most of my hours. Have you seen any sign of this or are you as comfortable street riding with them as any other street tire?