I can appreciate your list, but I'm pretty sure your message is NOT coming across. I think you have so many points that it is not making any of them clear.
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I can appreciate your list, but I'm pretty sure your message is NOT coming across. I think you have so many points that it is not making any of them clear.
B
Blue Falcon
Guest
we all took his simple design and kept throwing equations/design/suggestions/more suggestions/more physics/more design and overcomplicated it when in turn the original horn in it's simplest form is probably the best out of all this. It's like that engineering movie they play... caveman thinks of a wheel, makes the wheel, sells the wheel, another guy comes along takes the caveman into his business, teams of engineers change/design/etc etc etc the original wheel and after all of the testing/prototypes/marketing etc... they come out with the same exact wheel that the original caveman had and present it like it is brand new... it was as good as it needed to be from the beginning.
Fun to banter and throw around our polysyllabic words and hyphenated named theories.... but in the end... we all just overcomplicated it.
conclusion... ignore everything we said... make it how you want too make it.. just make it shiny( this is a metaphor ) with a cool name.
Unfortunately what you do not realize is that the design is based on such a fundamental principle (as evidenced by the discussion) that it can't help but work. What you see as complexity is actually simplicity. I even posted the single equation that describes it; that is the essence of simplicity.
B
Blue Falcon
Guest
Break it down simpler... suck, bang, blow.... we are just discussing how it sucks.
Actually you are more of a passive observer to the technical discussion.
B
Blue Falcon
Guest
Once I realized there was no actual measureable benefit to a redesign of the horn, it was no longer technical and I sat back with my popcorn and watched...threw a fishing line out...waited for a bite. Said from the beginning... can't see any real benefit....then my sarcasm ensued. Nothing new or fundamentally productive came out of this for guidance to the OP. The wheel was successfully reinvented again. i just saw a bunch of cut and pastes from Wikipedia pages and I'm suspect as to if anyone has any practical application of the formulas, principles and theories. But if your having to prove your point for a 2 inch long air horn that is fine the way it is....then go ahead.
I don't think you're taking this seriously....and I applaud you for that, LOL
I think Sharpy's had good value for his money starting this one.....
Funny,I now realize you were the one pointing out to me that I was using "the wrong formula". How would you know?
What you don't understand is I'm not working on a 2" pipe.
What I was doing is providing ample theoretical principle of the venturi/vortex principle to suggest there is clear application, something which you even enumerated early on.
The only thing I can see you are doing now is crowing about is that you don't like science, or engineers.
What is it you don't like, somebody sitting here at their keyboard and pulling back the veil of secrecy on you practical experience?
B
Blue Falcon
Guest
If you wanted to talk about anything BUT the horn in the OP example... there is another thread in the forum. This one albeit is for the 2 inch horn, as for the formula.... because ... as in my sig... worked on, around, in, above, below jet engines for 20 years.... I learnt a few tings. I have no need to toot my own horn about when, what, where I have been, worked on and made miracles happen. I dropped the mic and walked away from my career never looking back when I retired. I walked completely away from the gas turbine world, and by gas turbine I also mean ancillaries like power distribution, electronics, micro miniature repair, diesel engines, fuel refinery, IMA (your DoD, you should know this one) boilers, air systems, HVAC and refrigeration... There is not much I didn't do in my career and not many schools they didn't send me too. I walked away so I could take a job I ENJOYED and not one I contractually HAD to do. I was tired of being flown all over to fix things other people with the same training couldn't or wouldn't. If I ever see another Raytheon technician and the words "turn it off for 5 minutes then turn it back on and see if the fault clears" come out of his mouth, I will end him. aka. "Raytheon Reset" What practical experience do I have? I have enough, that's your answer. And why do I break it down so simple? In the end, 95% of it can always be broken down to simplicity of logic, yes or no. Why post a theory that was for fluids when the same rules don't apply to gases due to compressibility.. answer.. who cares in this case.. has no impact on the horn the OP posted.
Science, love science and I am an engineer... I just don't care for long winded will never make an impact on subject of the post stuff. that's all ( yes the science is there, but will have no major impact to redesign the horn to make it the application any more efficient than it already is... reinvent the wheel)
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B
Blue Falcon
Guest
Rule 62 ..... I'm a rockstar at it.... now lets see if anyone gets the irony.
No one is asking for a resume, just a productive conversation.
BTW My first job out of college was RTN EW in Santa Barbara (Jan 1980).
S
sharpy
Guest
"You do realise that if the coriolis force was to be of any use, you'd have to make them with the twist going one way for the Northern hemisphere - and the opposite way for us down here...."
greg , thats utter crap. LOL Bet you the stacks on left LHS go clockwise and the Stacks on RHS go anticlockwise works heap better, But im thinkn the general consent is they look trick. i hope
greg , thats utter crap. LOL Bet you the stacks on left LHS go clockwise and the Stacks on RHS go anticlockwise works heap better, But im thinkn the general consent is they look trick. i hope
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B
Blue Falcon
Guest
Nuke EM (de-nuked for medical reasons..they don't like seasonal allergies for some reason), then converted GSE ( I was the only 2M tech on ship with a clearance....I've seen a lot.. ) I had enough NEC's for continuation page on my DD-214 lol , then contractor after retirement for a very short time...before I walked away, bureaucracy was never my strong point and I had enough. Swore I would never take another job where I had to dress up or wear a suit. Doing what I love to do now and getting paid to do it now. The ability to not have to think and just do is sooooo satisfying...makes up 70% of my current week and offsets the 30% I actually do have to think.
So you're telling me you are familiar with the "Raytheon Reset"
dang...now I'm super off topic.... well poo
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B
Blue Falcon
Guest
Ok... I'll do a "for reals" post. Raised tubes may whistle, recessed would be cooler. Raised tubes also give a chance for FOD.
You forgot squeeze.....Thats about all I can add. The knowledge and understanding of physics here is far beyond my level......I sometimes wonder why you guys tinker with stone age GS motorcycles.....But im glad you do.
You forgot squeeze.....Thats about all I can add. The knowledge and understanding of physics here is far beyond my level......I sometimes wonder why you guys tinker with stone age GS motorcycles.....But im glad you do.
The sophisticated simplicity of the mechanical enginnering (engine) design on top of the basic dynamic complexities of how a motorcycle works, but most important is that they are dirt cheap
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Cold formed steel tube with alternating concave, convex (inside/outside) grooves. Would be very cheap. CNC the cold formed tooling like at a muffler shop. Tig welded flanges or aluminum flare for inlet?
What is FOD?
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I took it as Foreign Object Damage, but as stated earlier, I'm not that smart.....
B
Blue Falcon
Guest
You Sir are correct.
J
Joe Garfield
Guest
Maybe this has all been said - I read about 2 pages. I particularly like this topic so I felt like thinking and writing about it. But reading the last post, I think I came to the same conclusion (a polished surface)....
3D printing has horrible surface finish.
One of my projects at work was designing Venturi hardware for aircraft engine fuel injectors. There was a measured 10% increase in pressure drop of additive manufactured (3d printed) metal parts versus cast parts, and this is after almost 2 decades of process refinement to get a better surface finish. A smooth (polished) surface would be ideal but would be too expensive considering the complexity of the part. I haven't seen ANY plastic 3D printed parts that come anywhere close to the finish on the printed metal, except maybe SLA but I don't think it's as good.
I had a pair of skis in the '90s that had dimples. The idea was that the dimples carried air pockets with the skis, and there should be less friction between the air pockets and free stream air, versus the ski material and free stream air.
Golf ball dimples add turbulence around the ball (I think this has been said already) to help air stay attached to the surface and reduce the size of the high pressure zone behind the ball, creating less drag. The turbulence would actually create more surface drag, but the gain of pressure drag reduction outweighs that penalty. Plus the engineers can alter the trajectory of the flight path based on predictions of ball velocity and rotation rate.
So a dimpled surface would actually create turbulence and slow the air down, rather than speed it up. Turbulence is non-laminar flow, so if particles are travelling in any direction other than into the pipe, there is a loss in flow velocity.
Also, the boundary layer exists 360 degrees around the circumference of the pipe, so tripping or enlarging the boundary layer reduces the effective flow area (less area of unobstructed air flow). I would think you want a small boundary layer to create the largest effective flow area.
3D printing has horrible surface finish.
One of my projects at work was designing Venturi hardware for aircraft engine fuel injectors. There was a measured 10% increase in pressure drop of additive manufactured (3d printed) metal parts versus cast parts, and this is after almost 2 decades of process refinement to get a better surface finish. A smooth (polished) surface would be ideal but would be too expensive considering the complexity of the part. I haven't seen ANY plastic 3D printed parts that come anywhere close to the finish on the printed metal, except maybe SLA but I don't think it's as good.
I had a pair of skis in the '90s that had dimples. The idea was that the dimples carried air pockets with the skis, and there should be less friction between the air pockets and free stream air, versus the ski material and free stream air.
Golf ball dimples add turbulence around the ball (I think this has been said already) to help air stay attached to the surface and reduce the size of the high pressure zone behind the ball, creating less drag. The turbulence would actually create more surface drag, but the gain of pressure drag reduction outweighs that penalty. Plus the engineers can alter the trajectory of the flight path based on predictions of ball velocity and rotation rate.
So a dimpled surface would actually create turbulence and slow the air down, rather than speed it up. Turbulence is non-laminar flow, so if particles are travelling in any direction other than into the pipe, there is a loss in flow velocity.
Also, the boundary layer exists 360 degrees around the circumference of the pipe, so tripping or enlarging the boundary layer reduces the effective flow area (less area of unobstructed air flow). I would think you want a small boundary layer to create the largest effective flow area.
