Turn signal wires

[Nayt G]

I have this '81 850G running well enough that I think its about ready to at least go for a spin around the block, but I want to get some working turn signals first. I got the wiring diagram off bikecliff's site, and I don't understand what this brown wire is for? I don't see a brown wire going to the front on the diagram. The diagram looks to me like the black/white wire is the common ground, and then the black goes to one and the green goes to the other, but what is the brown for? I am sure there was a fairing on this bike before I became the owner (hence the name on the headlight), and I bought it with no front turn signals. The Headlight seems to be working properly.

 

[Steve]

If your front turn signals have a running light function, the brown wire will power that.

It is simply an accessory wire that is switched by the key and fed by the LIGHTS fuse.

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[Nayt G]

I wonder if the Vetter fairing it used to have on it had running lights. Should I just cap the brown wire?

 

[Steve]

The bike came with the brown wire from the factory, but it had a female spade connector on it then.

Because it's missing the connector, it might have been used with the Vetter.

Feel free to cap it off. Or use it to feed a voltmeter. Or use it to feed a cell phone charger. Or ...

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[Nayt G]

I found some stock turn signals on ebay that I hope will make it here by the end of the week. The rear blinkers aren't blinking at all now, and only one of them comes on solid. I'm hoping after reattaching proper front signals it will behave properly. For now I'm going to cap the brown, but I like where your head is at, Steve.

 

[Steve]

..., but I like where your head is at, Steve.

Farkles? :-k

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[Nayt G]

How likely is it that the turn signal relay would go bad? I acquired a set of working turn signals - they light up when I connect them to the brown - but they don't when wired up properly. When they are disconnected I can sometimes get the rears to light up and stay on but not blink (not consistently), but when they are in the circuit I can't even get that to happen. I can hear the relay cicking when I turn the signals on and off on the controls. I need to buy a voltage tester...

 

[Gorminrider]

First off, is everything original?

The original relay has only two connections and IS fairly reliable. The original relay won't click on and off properly unless both bulbs front and back are working. (They must be the correct incandescent type bulbs too)Since the rear lights are turning on and staying on, using the turn signal switch and that all signals work when another + supply is attached, I suspect a wiring issue for the front signals inside the headlamp per the coloured wire (positive). Double check against the wiring diagram is the first thing to do.

and yes, Black/ with white stripe wires ("B/W" on a wiring diagram) are "ground", "negative"...

Take your relay off and Test your relay by running two turn signals "through" it. Not in "series" though-connect both signals black wires to the same connection of the blinker relay. Connect the other post of the relay to battery +. Connect both B/W wires (grounds) to the battery -. Your lights should blink, your relay should click....

 

[Steve]

First of all, the brown wire has nothing to do with proper turn signal operation, but it <can> be used as a power source to test whether a bulb is good.

How likely is it that the turn signal relay would go bad?

Not very likely. About the only thing that will kill one is if the voltage regulator goes wonky and fries a bunch of stuff with high voltage.

I acquired a set of working turn signals - they light up when I connect them to the brown - but they don't when wired up properly. When they are disconnected I can sometimes get the rears to light up and stay on but not blink (not consistently), but when they are in the circuit I can't even get that to happen. I can hear the relay cicking when I turn the signals on and off on the controls.

How many wires are there on the new set of signals? Some Suzuki signals will have just one wire, others will have two, they all use the mount for a ground.

What bulbs are in the signals? They need to be full-size, proper bulbs. If you have single-filament bulbs (one wire), they need to be #1156. If you have two-filament bulbs, they need to be #1157. Some smaller replacement (but "functional") signals use smaller bulbs that are not as bright and will not draw enough current to get the relay to flash properly.

First off, is everything original?

The original relay has only two connections and IS fairly reliable.

If he is working on an '81 850, as stated, the original flasher relay has THREE terminals. The third terminal is connected to the Turn Signal Control Unit (TSCU). This is a unique situation, meaning that you can NOT go to Auto Zone to get a new flasher. Can't get one at Honda or Kawaski, either, it has to be a Suzuki flasher, unless you do a bunch of re-wiring. The three-terminal flasher is still just as reliable.

Take your relay off and Test your relay by running two turn signals "through" it. Not in "series" though-connect both signals black wires to the same connection of the blinker relay. Connect the other post of the relay to battery +. Connect both B/W wires (grounds) to the battery -. Your lights should blink, your relay should click....

This is valid with a two-terminal flasher, but will not work with a three-terminal flasher.

One other thing to consider: it has been mentioned (more than once) that you need to have the proper bulbs. If you have dual-filament bulbs in the front, make sure you are connected to the wire for the BRIGHT filament. That is where you can use your brown wire as a power source.

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[Nayt G]

I was just using the brown wire to test the signals/bulbs themselves, and they did both come on when I did that.

The signals only have 1 wire. The ground wire just goes to an eyelet that is slipped over the mounting threads.

First of all, the brown wire has nothing to do with proper turn signal operation, but it <can> be used as a power source to test whether a bulb is good.

Not very likely. About the only thing that will kill one is if the voltage regulator goes wonky and fries a bunch of stuff with high voltage.


How many wires are there on the new set of signals? Some Suzuki signals will have just one wire, others will have two, they all use the mount for a ground.

What bulbs are in the signals? They need to be full-size, proper bulbs. If you have single-filament bulbs (one wire), they need to be #1156. If you have two-filament bulbs, they need to be #1157. Some smaller replacement (but "functional") signals use smaller bulbs that are not as bright and will not draw enough current to get the relay to flash properly.




If he is working on an '81 850, as stated, the original flasher relay has THREE terminals. The third terminal is connected to the Turn Signal Control Unit (TSCU). This is a unique situation, meaning that you can NOT go to Auto Zone to get a new flasher. Can't get one at Honda or Kawaski, either, it has to be a Suzuki flasher, unless you do a bunch of re-wiring. The three-terminal flasher is still just as reliable.


This is valid with a two-terminal flasher, but will not work with a three-terminal flasher.

One other thing to consider: it has been mentioned (more than once) that you need to have the proper bulbs. If you have dual-filament bulbs in the front, make sure you are connected to the wire for the BRIGHT filament. That is where you can use your brown wire as a power source.

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[850 Combat]

I've had to replace a turn signal control unit on an '81 1000G, which would be the same. I don't know what kind of stock turn signals you bought, but the '81 850G had a dual filament bulb in front with its own power. That means that an additional circuit exists which I don't believe is in BassCliff's color wiring diagram.

Something my nephew forgot when he was working on the front turn signals is that the ground is a big ring terminal on the threaded mount where the turn signal bolts to the headlight shell. They won't work without that. I see that you have a Windjammer headlight bucket, so yout mounting may be different, but it will need a ground.

The turn signal control unit was expensive, as I recall. I do like the selfcancelling feature a lot though. Some people don't care about it.

 

[Nayt G]

I do have those ground wires with the ring connectors that I connected to the black/white.

 

[Gorminrider]

If he is working on an '81 850, as stated, the original flasher relay has THREE terminals. The third terminal is connected to the Turn Signal Control Unit (TSCU). This is a unique situation, meaning that you can NOT go to Auto Zone to get a new flasher. Can't get one at Honda or Kawaski, either, it has to be a Suzuki flasher, unless you do a bunch of re-wiring. The three-terminal flasher is still just as reliable.

aah! my mistake. Thanks Steve. That does make it more difficult...looking at the circuit diagram for the 1980 850 from basscliff's site...
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/images/80GS850GT_wiring_color-new.png

It's easy to suspect that self-canceller alright.
still, ignoring the self cancelling device couldn't you still to check the actual relay itself if it is a discrete part...orange/green stripe being positive supply, LtBl being positive output to signals and Black/blue stripe being ground negative?.... perhaps turf the "self cancelling" entirely . Also refer to bass-cliff's replacement of the self-cancelling with a new 3 wire relay..I haven't looked at it too closely but here:
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/storagecliff/images/turn_signal_relay_replacement.pdf


and then there's Matchless's more involved repairs per the 100G https://www.mediafire.com/?ofnzy51uly4h6

anyways,there's a link-farm to harvest...BUT I'd really work hard at checking those connections involved first...
PS I'm wondering if it's possible to USE a simpler two-wire bi-metal relay with the existing handlebar switch(compare switch connection wires to a 450 wiring diagram) but the three-wire would be better if you think you want to get into LED bulbs later.

 

[Steve]

still, ignoring the self cancelling device couldn't you still to check the actual relay itself if it is a discrete part...orange/green stripe being positive supply, LtBl being positive output to signals and Black/blue stripe being ground negative?....

That would work, except for one small detail. :-k There is no "ground negative" on the flasher relay.

Yes, there is a positive supply and a "flashing" output to the signals, but the third wire that comes from the TSCU is what tells the flasher relay to work or not. I don't know the exact circuitry, but think of it this way: the flasher relay has a second relay built-in that tells the flasher part that it needs to do its job. When the TSCU removes that signal, the flashing stops. That may not be the way it actually works, but it's easier to think of it that way.

... perhaps turf the "self cancelling" entirely . Also refer to bass-cliff's replacement of the self-cancelling with a new 3 wire relay.

I don't suspect any of the electronics are involved, I think it's simply a matter of having the correct bulbs and connecting them properly.

PS I'm wondering if it's possible to USE a simpler two-wire bi-metal relay with the existing handlebar switch(compare switch connection wires to a 450 wiring diagram) ...

It is VERY easy to simply replace the stock flasher with a normal two-pin flasher. The only 'problem' with that is that you give up your self-cancelling function. Many who have not experienced that feature will say "so what?", but once you experience a properly-working system, it's wonderful. :encouragement:

but the three-wire would be better if you think you want to get into LED bulbs later.

If you want to go to LED signal bulbs, you first have to decide whether you want to keep the self-cancelling feature. If you don't mind losing that feature, you need to find a 3-pin flasher whose pin layout matches the power in and flashing out pins on the bike, then cut the wire from the TSCU and connect it to the ground connection that is needed by the flasher.

If you DO want to keep the self-cancelling feature, it gets a little tricky, but it's possible. I have done it to mine. Instead of simply connecting that third wire to ground, route it to a relay that can be switched to ground. The trigger for that relay will come from the TSCU. I don't know all the specs on the parts necessary, as I was sent a prototype unit by another member for evaluation. I love it, but he has decided not not go into production on it. I might work on it over the winter to see if I can come up with a workable package.

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[Gorminrider]

There is no "ground negative" on the flasher relay.

um... well there has to be a "negative" side for the relay to work.

I strongly suspect the internal electronics of the black box canceller are all about this,(completing the relay's coil circuit by conducting to ground) albeit solid state.... However the question would be "what voltage is required for the relay coil?". because it's plainly somehow in series with the black-box canceller...so there's a volt or two lost there... relay's required V could be discovered from a working system by finding voltage drop across O/G and B/Bl wires...I suspect...but I don't know without having one...Matchless's stuff has the clues I bet.

 

[Steve]

um... well there has to be a "negative" side for the relay to work. ...

Well, yes and no. :-k

A standard two-pin flasher has no ground. Not needed. Power comes in and heads out the 'load' side, but can't go anywhere until you move the thumb lever to turn on the lights. When that happens, a bi-metallic strip inside the flasher heats up, due to the amperage going through it, and opens the circuit. Moments later, it cools off and closes the circuit again. It heats up again and opens the circuit, etc., etc.

On most of the 3-pin flashers you find at the auto parts store, the third pin is, indeed, a ground, as they have a timer inside that runs and turns the output pin ON and OFF, regardless of what load is applied.

I don't know the exact wiring inside our GS 3-pin flashers, and that third pin is probably a ground for a timer, but it is controlled by the TSCU. I do know for a fact that the TSCU will not provide enough of whatever is needed to activate an aftermarket flasher. It WILL work if you have the TSCU wire control a relay that switches the ground pin from an aftermarket flasher.

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[Nayt G]

I had no idea replacing my missing turn signals was going to be so complicated

 

[Steve]

It can be VERY easy. :-k

Get OEM or OEM-equivalent lights, connect them to the proper wires, you're done. :encouragement:

On the other hand, get some "custom" signals, try to install improper bulbs or LEDs, things can get interesting. :-\\\

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[Nayt G]

That was the plan. That's why I bought lights that came off of an actual motorcycle. Since that didn't work with them connected to the correct wires, I guess I should investigate the flasher unit? What else could it be, the controls?