warmer days ahead, alas, no spark

[Guest]

Thought I would get the old girl (83 1100es) going a bit early this year, seeing as we have a stretch of warmer weather ahead. Fresh gas, charged battery, and....NO SPARK. Well, crap. Time to diagnose....get out the multimeter and.....the cheap piece of hardware store junk no worky anymore. Super. So I am in the market for a new meter, and it would be nice to figure out my no spark, too.... Nothing to really report here, just venting a bit I guess.....

 

[Guest]

I'll fill in some details in case someone has a carnac moment before i can diagnose.... 1100 es, well maintained, running the SSPB (solid state power board fuse block replacement for the uninitiated), Dyna green coils, well-charged new-ish battery, clean harness. Bike has been running well, until a time last fall when I had an intermittent electrical/ignition fault while riding. Ignition cut out off and on for about a mile of road or so, but miraculously cleared itself up. I was unable to find a definite cause for it, I found one damaged terminal end in a connector, which has been replaced. Bike cranks well, carbs are clean and getting fresh fuel. No spark when I lay the plugs against the head. I am wondering now if MAYBE the electrical oddity of last fall could have been ignitor related. I'm planning on picking up a new multimeter tomorrow and running some diagnostics, but in the meantime, ideas are welcome!

greg

 

[Sasquatch]

Thought I would get the old girl (83 1100es) going a bit early this year, seeing as we have a stretch of warmer weather ahead. Fresh gas, charged battery, and....NO SPARK. Well, crap. Time to diagnose....get out the multimeter and.....the cheap piece of hardware store junk no worky anymore. Super. So I am in the market for a new meter, and it would be nice to figure out my no spark, too.... Nothing to really report here, just venting a bit I guess.....

Maybe new battery's in the meter?

 

[Guest]

tried that, its just a junky cheapy. bad leads, swapped them with some known new ones, then still inconsistent/no meaningful readings. one of these days i will pick up a decent used fluke or something.

 

[Lorenzo]

Can you confirm the integrity of the molex from the regulator/fuseblock area (left panel) going up to the battery?

 

[Guest]

pins in the connector all look good. I replace one that had some damage, everything else is tight. I fell asleep with the kiddos last night, so no new data....

 

[Guest]

confirmed it is a bad ignitor, if anyone sees chef around, let him know he has a pm! Been reading up on stock vs dyna s vs 2000, seems to be a good year for ignition systems....

 

[Guest]

ok. well. a new ignitor is of no help. Here is what i've got so far.....Charged battery. Lights, etc all ok. Bike cranks strong. Dyna green coils (1 year old) test ok via ohm measurement. Signal generator tests ok (ohms per FSM). Both ignitors fail the 1.5 volt battery test..... The "new" one was purchased off a member of the forum, from a running but wrecked bike. Either I have 2 bad ignitors (seems unlikely??) or there is a problem in the wiring from the ignitor to the coils? This also seems unlikely, wiring harness is intact , no signs of rats nibbling or anything like that. Ideas?? I have peeled a bit of tape back at both ends of the harness, nothing looks amiss. I must be missing something.......

 

[Guest]

Ok, I have some questions, if someone could be so kind. I am not seeing voltage at the coils. The o/w from the ignitor powers the coils, yes? Should I have power at the coils if the ignitor is bad? Regarding the kill switch, would the bike crank if there was something wrong with that? Is it possible for the bike to crank but not get power to the coils? I took apart the ignition switch, it SEEMS ok.....I am a bit stumped as to what is going on. Any help would be much appreciated!!!

Greg

 

[Redman]

Hi greg
glad to help how ever I can (see pm)

power on org/wht (am away from schematic so going by suspect memory and what you said) comes from ignition fuse and then kill switch .... which is pretty much same as goes to starter buttton, so know is good to there but loosing it somewhere thru wiring harness before gets to coils.

(coils not powered thru igniter. Both coils powered by same org/wht wire from the kill switch. The ignitor operates the coils each separately thru the other wire at coil)

 

[Redman]

If have power at ignition fuse when switch is on then ignition switch is okay.

Ignition (power at coils) and starter button do get power from same ignition fuse and kill switch. But since the start button is right next to the killswitch , that is just a little jumper wire, but to get that same power to the coils there is wiring and connnectors thru the bike to get to the coils.

 

[Guest]

I haven't taken a look at the kill switch, (I will tonight) just seems odd that I have power everywhere else. Kill switch works to cut power everywhere else.....

I am (if you don't remember) running the SSPB, I really don't want to think that is the issue, but I am wondering if I need to start looking harder at it. I replaced one of the pins in the molex connector, all else LOOKS ok, but.....

Not much I can do here at work except ponder and study wiring diagrams..... Thanks for the response, Dave, if I am still stumped come this weekend, I might be giving you a call...weather looks promising.....

edit: Looking at the diagram, the coils are powered separately through the kill from the rest of the bike....if I am looking at it wrong. I will LOL if after this frustration it is a loose connector somewere at the kill switch....rookie mistake....ugh.

 

[Gorminrider]

as Redman says and on my bike,( guessing yours too since you have an "ignitor" and suzukis are similar.)

The o/w from the ignitor powers the coils, yes?

Yes

Should I have power at the coils if the ignitor is bad?

not likely but it depends on exactly how the ignitor failed. Failed "Open"? or Failed as "short circuit...

the ignitor interrupts the coils circuit to ground(negative), creating spark. The sensors on the crank tell it when to do this.

You won't see positive and negative power across the coils if the ignitor is not allowing access to ground because current must flow from Positive to ground(negative) for you to "see" a voltage drop through the coils' resistive loads.

If you look at the diagram, and you agree that you need + and -, then where do the coils go to -? On the other side of the "ignitor". so that's still your problem.
Substitute a pigtailed lightbulb in the circuit for the ignitor (short across it) and you will know if + is getting through the coils.

Is it possible for the bike to crank but not get power to the coils?

yes. starting and ignition both tap the same O/W wire.and the O/W wire is controlled through the kill switch. If Kill is on, bike can turn over independent of the ignition system.

 

[Redman]

I haven't taken a look at the kill switch, (I will tonight) just seems odd that I have power everywhere else. Kill switch works to cut power everywhere else.....

......

No, as I said earlier, and maybe you said later: No, the kil swtich does not kill all power. THe kill swtich kills power (Org/wht) to the starter button and to the ignition coils and the igniter only, which are all the items on the ignition fuse. But the kill switch does not kill not anything else like dash lights or instrumenst or other lights.

You say it does crank over, so kill switch is powering the starter button, so the kill switch must be okay.
At the kill swtich is the wire comming from the ignition fuse. And on other side of the kill switch is a little jumper over to the starter button and another wire going out to the wiring harnerss and thru some connectors to the bikes harness to get to the coils (and the ignitor).

Follow the wiring harness from the handle bar control. Find the connector. I cant tell you where to find that connector on an ES, (maybe in headlight shell).
One Org/Wht wire (maybe has red collar) is from the ignition fuse.
Other Org/wht wire is the one comming back from the kill switch, going to coils and igniter. THis is my leading suspect. Check it with meter.
All the other wires in that connector have to do with the non-existnet headlight switch, so not part of your concern here.
The Yel/Grn wire to a separate connector is from the starter button.
(I think the schematic I am looking at is for a 1100E, but even if is for an G, I think this portion is the same.)

You can call before the weekend. (see recent PM) Do not need to wait until stumped and/or frustrated.

.

 

[Guest]

I HAVE SPARK!! Found a dodgy connection made by a po, and fixed another bad pin in the molex to the SSPB, not sure which was the culprit, but praise the FSM we have a spark. Now to rewrap some wires and actually get it running....

 

[Redman]

I HAVE SPARK!! ..................... and ........................., not sure which was the culprit, .................................

Good.
Good to hear of success, rather than more frustration.

Sounds like you fixed THE problem, and maybe took care of a future problem also, without knowing which was which was which.

Tell us more about how you found these.... or did they just look suspect.

.

 

[Guest]

I was tracing the wires from the kill switch and the connector just came off in my hand, heh. It was wrapped in some of the plastic sheathing around the kill wires, and wrapped with elec tape as well, so not an obvious connector. The kill switch and wiring are actually replacements, they are from an R1, purpose of which is a quick-turn throttle, and the connections don't go through the usual routes due to some other mods....there is no connector in the headlight area, just direct connections under the tank. The po was a good mechanic, but I think even he would admit electrics were not his strongest suit....it's ok, 35 year old bikes come with these sorts of quirks. Troubleshooting was a bit complicated by the fact i am running the SSPB, which to those who don't know the lingo is a solid state power distribution center designed by a member here. It replaces the fuseblock with electronic switching, the goal of which is improved circuit protection and electron distribution as well as integrated coil relay, headlight relay, and headlight cutout during cranking. I have had to refamiliarize myself with how it works, current paths, etc, since it has been a few years since I installed it and had to deal with anything. I am still not ENTIRELY SURE I understand what exactly was going on to lose spark......but I do know I have it back, fat and blue. Gave me a chance to explain coils and voltage to my kids, they were excited to see the plug spark against the head. I should cobble together a jacob's ladder for them.....bzzzzt bzzzzt bzzzzzt....

 

[Redman]

So, poking around in the right area, and it made itself known by falling apart. So good of it to volunteer like that. Maybe that was okay, barely okay, untill it fell apart, but was about to be another problem soon anyway.

And the errant pin in the connector on your SSPB board. That sounds like could have been THE problem.

Sounds like you lost ignition power after the kill switch, same as if kill switch was off (but/except still did have it over to the starter button).

................. Gave me a chance to explain coils and voltage to my kids, they were excited to see the plug spark against the head. ....................

and you got to be a hero to your kids.

I am imagining one of your kids, taking to a buddy down the street, "Yah, my Dad can fix motorcycles. My Dad can make spark plugs spark right in front of your eyes. I bet your Dad cant do that!! My Dad is the coolest Dad ever!! " (You still have a few years yet for your kids to say things like that.)

 

[Guest]

heh, hero might be an overstatement..... more like "good, now you can move your crap outta the way so we can park our bikes there...."

 

[850 Combat]

I kind of wish that I would have bought one of those units. I'm not huge fan of additional relays, in general though. Headlight relays and fuel pump relays have both put me on foot when I had been driving.

I'm glad that you found the problems.