• Required reading for all forum users!!!

    Welcome!
    Register to access the full functionality of the GSResources forum. Until you register and activate your account you will not have full forum access, nor will you be able to post or reply to messages.

    A note to new registrants...
    All new forum registrations must be activated via email before you have full access to the forum.

    A Special Note about Email accounts!
    DO NOT SIGN UP USING hotmail, outlook, gmx, sbcglobal, att, bellsouth or email.com. They delete our forum signup emails.

    A note to old forum members...
    I receive numerous requests from people who can no longer log in because their accounts were deleted. As mentioned in the forum FAQ, user accounts are deleted if you haven't logged in for the past 6 months. If you can't log in, then create a new forum account. If you don't get an error message, then check your email account for an activation message. If you get a message stating that the email address is already in use, then your account still exists so follow the instructions in the forum FAQ for resetting your password.

    Have you forgotten your password or have a new email address? Then read the forum FAQ for details on how to reset it.

    Any email requests for "can't log in anymore" problems or "lost my password" problems will be deleted. Read the forum FAQ and follow the instructions there - that's what we have one for...

  • Returning Visitors

    If you are a returning visitor who never received your confirmation email, then odds are your email provider is blockinig emails from our server. The only thing that can be done to get around this is you will have to try creating another forum account using an email address from another domain.

    If you are a returning visitor to the forum and can't log in using your old forum name and password but used to be able to then chances are your account is deleted. Purges of the databases are done regularly. You will have to create a new forum account and you should be all set.

Welding to header bolt. Safety pointers needed

BigD_83

Forum Sage
Past Site Supporter
This might seem like an obvious question, but when welding onto broken header bolts, what are the best practices for safety? (assume this is being done by MIG)

The BIG ONE (I would think): Remove the tank and place it a safe distance away

Is it necessary to drain the carbs and turn the engine a few times to displace any residual fumes/condensed fuel in the cylinders?

Anything else?

Thanks in advance.
 
Just remove the battery, that's it.

You don't need to worry about the Carbs or Tank unless it's leaking or in your way.
You're only spot-welding the bolts so it'll only be about a 2 second blast, right?

Are you actually running Mig or Flux?
 
Just remove the battery, that's it.

You don't need to worry about the Carbs or Tank unless it's leaking or in your way.
You're only spot-welding the bolts so it'll only be about a 2 second blast, right?

Are you actually running Mig or Flux?
Good point about the battery. Might have overlooked that on my own. Thanks guys.

I'm hoping I'll be able to get my hands on a true MIG setup...from what I've been reading, I don't think I'm interested in flux. Doesn't seem to be the most utilitarian of the setups.

Of course, at this point I will be relying on the skills and equipment of others, so in the end it may be flux.
 
If you think that jump-starting your bike with a running car can hurt it,
try welding on it. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Daniel
 
remove the battery and if your worried about it, the gas tank too. Weld the nut on the stud pretty good and let it cool before trying to turn it so the weld hardens. You can drip some oil on the stud also just after youve welded. The heat will draw the oil up into the hole a little.
 
No need to disconnect the battery unless the battery is near the area to be welded and yu have concerns regarding gassing. I assume that you are electric welding? Arc, MIG, TIG?

Welding, welding related induction, etc. will not affect the battery. People often seek to protect the electronics components in the system by disconnecting the battery but any reflection will reveal that this is counter-productive. Removing the battery from the system removes an active damper across the circuit and so will tend to increase the effect of induction currents and voltage spikes.

Should someone wish to reduce concerns regarding electric welding and other induction issues, IMO, one is better advised to disconnect both cables from the battery and to connect these cables together as this will prevent a difference in potential from being created between ground and "hot" sides of the circuits.

The suggestion regardin dripping oil onto the hot stud is well taken. An even more effective technique can be to melt wax onto the hot stud allowing the wax to wick back up the threads. I prefer a motor oil or automatic transmission fluid for the purpose of lubricating threads to the use of light oil products such as WD40. Light oil products may penetrate up the threads more effectively when dealing with cold materials but lack the extreme pressure additives and tend to evaporate too quickly on hot areas.

One might also be wise to consider the effects of the smoke and other gasses emitted by oils and other products being exposed to high temperatures.....
 
I hear talk of welding a nut to a broken stud but I have never heard (or seen)of anyone being successful at it.
My welding skills leave a lot to be disired so maybe this is why it didnt work for me.
 
Todd..If theres enough of the stud sticking out you start in the center of the stud and work the puddle outward till it welds to the nut. Once its cooled abit and the weld is hardened then a socket or wrench can be used. Ive done it and ive had the weld release too. Its a 50/50 gamble but if it holds then its the easiest way. Ive had to drill down the center of studs and go progressively larger so i could collapse the stud into itelf to get them out too. The job just sucks no matter what.
 
I had to weld custom brackets onto my B-12 for my highway pegs... Never removed anything, the area around the frame I was welding got very hot but other then that it was fine... That was 20K miles ago, last season.
 
Todd..If theres enough of the stud sticking out you start in the center of the stud and work the puddle outward till it welds to the nut. Once its cooled abit and the weld is hardened then a socket or wrench can be used. Ive done it and ive had the weld release too. Its a 50/50 gamble but if it holds then its the easiest way. Ive had to drill down the center of studs and go progressively larger so i could collapse the stud into itelf to get them out too. The job just sucks no matter what.
In my case there is not much of the stud sticking out. In fact, I'm not sure I have the requisite skill set to do this on my own right now. A PO butchered a previous extraction attempt, and it is not pretty...you can see in the (albeit blurry) second photo that there is only one stud/bolt with much relief at all.

DSC_0309.jpg


DSC_0306.jpg
 
Your first issue here is to get the rust off the remaining studs before you attempt any welding at all. Otherwise the welds won't hold.

Second, you may want to leave those to a pro, because the heat required to make even a moderately effective weld will likely melt the surrounding aluminum, and then you're really screwed.

The biggest problem is that the P.O. mangled them up so badly trying to get them out in the first place. That attempt has left them without the material available to take the heat of the weld and actually fuse the nut on effectively. The off-center drill holes are particularly problematic in terms of avoiding aluminum melt.

Good luck with it, but quite frankly I'd pay a pro to avoid a larger bill later. I have MIG and am all about "doing it oneself," but I'd surely have second thoughts if I were faced with trying to weld on those studs...

Regards,
 
not to be negative but....
your done.
to fix it right you need to remove the head and take it to a machine shop and have those removed...end mill in a bridge-port thing.
i'm not just saying to fix it but to fix it right....
 
and just to add this...
anyone wanting to remove the exhaust bolts in the future...
run your engine and get it really HOT HOT.
this betters your chances.
penetrating oils and such does nothing for steel thats seized in aluminum.
the HEAT is the trick.
 
not to be negative but....
your done.
to fix it right you need to remove the head and take it to a machine shop and have those removed...end mill in a bridge-port thing.
i'm not just saying to fix it but to fix it right....
BB,

I do not disagree with you. My first thought when I looked at it was that there was a chance. The more I think about what is there, the more I think the most cost-effective solution is to take it to someone with the skills and experience to do the work with the engine (or head) out of the bike. I've been casting about for a replacement head, just in case things go south...

At the moment the bike can be ridden with the exhaust as is, but for the long-term health of the bike and my own peace of mind, it needs to be fixed. Even with access to the equipment at work, I do not have the experience to do it without turning the bad into something worse.

I've got a few inquiries out there locally to get quotes on the work, and there is another GSer with a certain skill set who is willing to have a look at it for me, if I can get the bike/engine to him.
 
Why not drill it and use easy outs(ie. screw extractors)?

I've used that method on several car engines
 
Ive removed broken studs at this level befoer with great success. Heres my input after 28 years of this kinda work. Do not use a zinc coated nut (the silver finish) use a black oxide ones (theyre black in finish) Start your plug weld dead center of the nut to the stud and spiral it out to the nut. allow the nut to cool to touch then if you can, run the bike til the block at the header is at operating temps. If not, a radiant or magnet heater will have to do. just before you start trying to remove it, LIGHTLY tap the nut/stud with a hammer. This will aid in breaking the oxidation between the stud and block. with the block hot, spray the stud with some of the freezing style penatration lube and work the nut/stud in a back and forth motion, always trying to back it out as much as you can without too much force. Tap the nut/stub lightly as you go. I use ratcheting wrench so I can tap the nut as I loosen it. Ive removed so manywith this method I cant begin to reemmber how many and not one has failed. Just remember to take your time and reheat the block as needed. good luck
 
Why not drill it and use easy outs(ie. screw extractors)?

I've used that method on several car engines

Easy outs are notorious on here for breaking off inside the same hole and making the job worse. Left handed drill bits will work better although heat and a lubricant need to be used as well.
 
The problem with easy-out devices is simple if one considers the circumstances.

1) The fastener failed because it could not accept the torque required to turn in the threads.

2) The, much smaller diameter, easy-out cannot possibly accept even the torque which, though insufficient, twisted the fastener off.

Easy-outs are useful for removing fasteners which have been sheared off, snapped by bending, etc. but are not applicable to torque load breakage.

Breaking an easy-out off in the broken fastener adds another dimension of problems although I have seen dozens and dozens. Drilling these is fun unless you have carbide drills so avoid the problem by considering the problem.

There are many valid techniques for removing seized and broken fasteners although nothing is quite so much fun as to cause a dispute between two cranky old machinists or techs. by asking what is the best way.;)

IME, it is difficult to improve on heating/welding to the broken piece as has been outlined. If someone is determined to learn how to do this work, proceed with great care and do not begin on something of value.

Buy a wrecked bike and use that as the lab rat. By the time you have successfully removed a dozen seized and broken ones, you will begin to understand why those of us who have done hundreds still don't think it is as enjoyable as a sunny afternoon in the lawn chair.:D

While this is not true 100% of the time, you can be quite assured that trying to remove a seized fastener by use of an easy-out will be a failed attempt leading to more heart ache.....

When you get really good at drilling out 6 mm studs, try drilling out the snapped off end of a GL1100 idle mixture screw.:eek:

Didn't think I still had it but eye balled and hand drilled one for my brother-in-law last year. :pray:A #72 drill just leaves a foil thin tube of brass.:)

Still have the piece around here somewhere....

The real answer is not to let them seize in the first place or at least to avoid using too much torque and snapping the stud.

A very useful technique to avoid such problems is to use a "nut cracker" or small sharp chisel and hammer to split the nut axially through two opposed flats. It is most helpful to place a heavy block against the opposite flat in order to avoid breaking the stud due to side force.

One can crack the nuts in half, remove the exhaust to make room if necessary and run a thread chaser over the threads. New nuts with never-seize and all is well. If the thread chaser or die nut won't start over the ends of the threads, a thread file and or small triangular file will do the job.
 
OK, in my case I have not broken the Allen bolts (not nuts on studs) off nor have I stripped them yet. 1 or 2 seem ready to remove, others don't.
One thing I have done on car exhaust is to burn the bolt heads off with an acetylene torch. After that the resulting high heat allowed the remainder of the bolt to almost turn out by hand. Is this an option with my GS 1100 engine? Or will the aluminum factor horn me?
 
Back
Top