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What's wrong with this picture? Part 2

Steve

GS Whisperer
OK, nothing difinitive yet on the cheery red pipes, but we had some other interesting finds today.

Started by taking the carbs off, getting them ready to dip. Got the first carb into the dip, started working on the second one. Pilot jet is stuck, will have to try the heat and/or PB Blaster to remove, but have to be careful, as there is not much of a groove left for the screwdriver to grip. Set aside carb #2, proceed to #3.

Oops.
IMG_3926.jpg


IMG_3927.jpg


Not sure what might have happened here. Looks like a miniature nuclear meltdown in the area of the idle mixture screw. There is no screw visible. The area it should thread into has been cut down, looks like someone tried to use a hacksaw to make a new groove to remove the jet. Also looks like they tried to drill the jet out, but the hole goes down at an angle, and no trace of the jet can be seen. I sprayed carb cleaner in the hole and nothing came out, so I guess there is something in there, but there is NO hope of ever getting it out.

Carb #4 has two stuck jets, the pilot jet in the bottom and the air jet in the intake throat. Will have try more heat and/or PB Blaster.

All the carbs are apart and The Cafe Kid is here, so let's move on to the valve adjustment. Found five valves that would not let my 0.0015" feeler through, and one that was only 0.0015", so it's now time to do the shim inventory to see what I can move around. The Suzuki valve shim tool is cocking sideways far too easily, so we move to the wire tie under the edge of the valve trick. Not too bad until we got to #3 intake. Moving the crank to open the valve, it stopped rather suddenly. Backed it up and tried again, but got the same results. Shining a light through the spark plug hole did not look promising, so we decided to remove the head.

IMG_3945.jpg


IMG_3953.jpg


Those are both pieces of #3 exhaust valve. I have seen very few broken valves in my experience as a mechanic, but have never seen one break like this.

If you are really sharp, you may have noticed that the spark plug hole is rather king-sized. That is because the Helicoil came out with the plug.

To make a long story short (oops, too late), we have scraped all the gaskets off the cases, cylinder block and head, wire-brushed the carbon off the tops of the pistons and the combustion chambers, and will now be looking for a replacement valve and a complete gasket set. Might be cheaper in the long run, anyway, as we were going to be pulling many of the covers to polish them, and also needed exhaust gaskets and a valve cover gasket. Now they will all be included in one kit.

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Twas indeed a fun day of learning however, if there is a plus side to all of this. Neither Steve, nor I have ever taken the head and jugs off, well now we have. I posted up in the parts wanted section, if anyone happens to have an exhaust valve and #3 BS32 carb. This bike is his sons, and his sons moolah, so needless to say, he's on a budget. If anyone has anything in good shape to sell, we sure would appreciate it :) PM me if ya do please.

Anyway, Steve, while this extra work was not what you were hoping to have to do, it indeed was an excellent lesson for me, as now i feel pretty confident in at least taking my 8V motors apart (getting them back together will remain to be seen..lol) and as always a pleasure wrenching with ya! :-D
 
on the positive side, there's not that much carbon build-up on that other exhaust valve :-D
 
on the positive side, there's not that much carbon build-up on that other exhaust valve :-D

Yeah, not much on the valves, but there was a light coating on the top of the combustion chamber and the tops of the pistons. A little work with the wire wheel and it all looks better now.

IMG_3961.jpg


IMG_3959.jpg


IMG_3976.jpg

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remember, Canada is your friend!
I got a set of carbs from the great frozen north and their jetting is so much better than the EPA forced us to use.
and best of all, the pilot bleed air screws are right up top easy to get to. no plugs to drill out!!!
 
Did the valve break due to the nylon tie wedged in it to measure the valve clearance and the other valve smucked it when you were turning the motor over? Ted
 
These are some great pics, way better than any of the manuals. Keep em coming! Good Luck!
 
Wow Steve, you guys really have some project going on there! Was the valve already broken before you checked the clearances or did it break while you were checking them? -Chuck
 
Not that Steve needs suggestions when it comes to mechanical stuff...but you guys might want to consider a threaded insert to replace those spark plug threads. Had one on a 450 I bought and it was very secure, unlike Helicoils that like to come out when the plug is removed.
 
Did the valve break due to the nylon tie wedged in it to measure the valve clearance and the other valve smucked it when you were turning the motor over? Ted
I would think that it would have happened sooner, if that was the case. We had already done cylinders 1&2, as well as exhaust #3. We were moving to intake #3 when we could not rotate the engine enough to get the cam to depress intake #3.


These are some great pics, way better than any of the manuals. Keep em coming! Good Luck!
This was not intended as a tutorial, but we take a few pictures along the way, just for the kid's scrapbook.


Wow Steve, you guys really have some project going on there! Was the valve already broken before you checked the clearances or did it break while you were checking them?
See the note above, but I think it broke after checking the shim size on exhaust #3 (the broken valve). We had checked all the clearances and were in the process of checking all the shim sizes to put into that spreadsheet that all you guys are bragging about. :-\"


Not that Steve needs suggestions when it comes to mechanical stuff...but you guys might want to consider a threaded insert to replace those spark plug threads. Had one on a 450 I bought and it was very secure, unlike Helicoils that like to come out when the plug is removed.
Hey, I'm always open to suggestions. :shock:
I was planning on re-installing a Heli-coil, but you say a threaded insert is better?
What is the difference and where do I get them?
Can I install one after an apparently failed Heli-coil install? :-s

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Hey, I'm always open to suggestions. :shock:
I was planning on re-installing a Heli-coil, but you say a threaded insert is better?
What is the difference and where do I get them?
Can I install one after an apparently failed Heli-coil install? :-s

.

Heli-coils tend to come out each time you take the bolt/plug loose. If you get a Time-sert put in, it won't come back out. Worth the money in my opinion although you may have to pay a machine shop to put it in as the tools are not cheap. http://www.timesert.com/
 
Heli-coils tend to come out each time you take the bolt/plug loose. If you get a Time-sert put in, it won't come back out. Worth the money in my opinion although you may have to pay a machine shop to put it in as the tools are not cheap. http://www.timesert.com/
Yeah, I was looking at the site and found this in the FAQs:
14.Can I repair a stripped helicoil with a TIME-SERT insert? No, you cannot repair a helicoil with a TIME-SERT. The over-sized line in inserts available is called BIG-SERT. Please refer to catalog or web page for sizes available.
I will have to call them, but it appears that I might be stuck with using another Heli-coil.

.
 
Heli-coils tend to come out each time you take the bolt/plug loose. If you get a Time-sert put in, it won't come back out. Worth the money in my opinion although you may have to pay a machine shop to put it in as the tools are not cheap. http://www.timesert.com/
i second this
i have all four of them done with time serts, have taken the plugs off quite a few times and no prob, with helicoils on another engine they would often come out on the plug
 
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Yeah, I was looking at the site and found this in the FAQs:

I will have to call them, but it appears that I might be stuck with using another Heli-coil.

.
you can use the big serts - they are like over-sized time sert, the outer size is larger than the current heli coil size hole
(i'm not sure about the inner size though, it's either a plug size already or you still need to use the time sert)
keep us posted please
 
I would think that it would have happened sooner, if that was the case. We had already done cylinders 1&2, as well as exhaust #3. We were moving to intake #3 when we could not rotate the engine enough to get the cam to depress intake #3.



This was not intended as a tutorial, but we take a few pictures along the way, just for the kid's scrapbook.



See the note above, but I think it broke after checking the shim size on exhaust #3 (the broken valve). We had checked all the clearances and were in the process of checking all the shim sizes to put into that spreadsheet that all you guys are bragging about. :-\"



Hey, I'm always open to suggestions. :shock:
I was planning on re-installing a Heli-coil, but you say a threaded insert is better?
What is the difference and where do I get them?
Can I install one after an apparently failed Heli-coil install? :-s

.


Steve, I used that same threaded sleeve when fixing the spark plug port on my step-dads Chevy. Its the solid threaded sleeve that you took out right? Not a coiled spring like thing? If its the sleeve, those actually work well, and the directions call for high temp RVT to hold the sleeve in the head when you put it in originally, apparently this was never done, but doenst mean it cant be.
 
if it's a SLEEVE then it's a time-sert or similar
if it's a SPRING then it's a heli-coil or similar
 
I think whatever broke the valve is only part of the problem. Valves don't break like this, I have seen them bend into strange shapes from hitting pistons, they are not supposed to break. I bet it broke because it was weakened, something like the steel got tempered incorrectly when the engine was getting so hot the pipes were red. Where it broke it was not bent at all, looks like a piece of hardened tool steel that broke from a bending load. I know this valve was from another cylinder than the one with the red pipes, but I would not be surprised to see more valves from this engine break, don't think I would put any of them back in.
Especially given the spark plug hole issue I would be looking for a good used head if it were me.

Just so happens I have one, although it needs some work done, you can probably find a better one closer.
I believe The Cafe Kid will soon have a spare head?
 
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