Where do you get your skills from?

[MelodicMetalGod]

Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well by David L. Hough

Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track by Nick Ienatsch


Soft Science of Roadracing Motorcycles: The Technical Procedures and Workbook for Roadracing Motorcycles by Keith Code

Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques by Lee Parks

Twist of the Wrist: The Motorcycle Roadracers Handbook (Vol 1) by Keith Code

A Twist of the Wrist 2: The Basics of High-Performance Motorcycle Riding by Keith Code

Ordered but not here yet ..

Ride Hard, Ride Smart: Ultimate Street Strategies for Advanced Motorcyclists by Patrick Hahn

That?s quite a list and a good one at that!

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

I did the MSF. In fact, you have to take a private MSF course in order to get your endorsement in Florida, thanks to a law change in June.

You have to have 6mos experience before you can apply for the Experienced course. I'm looking for other coaching resources.

Although the ERC is a bit pedestrian compared to my expectations, I do think it has value. However, it?s does have a lot of ?refresher? feel to it, but I look at it as, at the very least, very good and structured practice WITH FEEDBACK. That feedback is something that you simply do not get on your own so, IMHO, it is VERY valuable to have a coach with a plan and a eye for technique.

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

There is no substitute for time behind the bars, for me I started out racing 80cc motocross as a kid and graduated to 125cc and then to 250cc. Dirt riding gave me all the mechanics, so when I made the conversion to the street it was much easier. I could not agree more with attending a few track sessions, this alone will hone your skills faster than any book or coarse. This will help you develop the right line and position which is so crucial to your compfort level. It improves your confidence at high speeds and makes you trust your machine and its capabilities. Do the track day...some what pricey but worth every penny. You will not regret it!

Ride on dirt - even with your GS, but better with a dirt bike.

On dirt you develop an invaluable feel for traction and braking. And it's fun.
http://www.ratbike.org/docs/481.php

I?ve been riding for a couple of decades, but dirt riding never presented itself to me (in spite of my 4th grade essay detailing my aspirations to grow up to be a ?Dirt Bike Rider? J) and to date I have never ridden dirt. Lately I?ve been hearing loads about how beneficial dirt experience is, so this year a beginning dirt riding class will be on my list of courses take.

All the above, assuming you have the ability to internalize and put into practice things you read.

Also, look into the Lee Parks Total Control Riding clinic and see if there's one anywhere near you. This is considered one of the absolute best.
http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/


And practice, practice, practice. Get out to the local twisties and think hard about what you're doing. In fact, one of the things I like to do sometimes is run through several miles of corners at about half speed, concentrating on absolute perfection in cornering technique.

And of course, on public roads, there's also something called roadcraft -- the art of staying alive out in the real world, quite separate from the pursuit of speed and technique.

And finally, I'd probably say that you should try and ride by yourself most of the time, at least until you've got a good handle on your comfort zone. When you ride with others, you tend to get dragged down to or up to the group's speed, so riding your own ride can be pretty difficult.

At the GS rallies, we handle things very differently than most group rides to make sure that no one gets pressured to ride above or below their skill level. Mainly, we force the herd to split up into small groups of two to five riders that choose their own routes and paces. A GS rally is a great place to see and learn from very skilled and safe riders of all different preferred paces. Being a skilled rider doesn't mean you're burning up the road all the time.

This is an excellent article on "Riding The Pace":
http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_9306_motorcycle_pacing/index.html

Loads of good stuff here. Total Control is high on my list. Almost did it last year but it got supplanted by Keith Codes Superbike School Level I and OnOneWheel.com Level I.

I would add that the Experienced RiderCourse is pretty much a waste of a nice riding day, IMHO.

If you're one of those 1,000 mile a year guys with a pristine chromebarge, then yeah, it might be a little useful to get a very gentle review of the basics.

But if you ride a lot already, you'll get more out of riding 300-400 miles that day in the twisties and thinking carefully about your technique.

YMMV. Just my opinion. And maybe it's different now.


Actually, even an experienced rider could learn a lot from re-taking the MSF basic course once in a while. Taking things back to zero and correcting your bad habits is a great idea. Much more useful than watching Harleys stall for six hours.

I think I may still hold the land speed record for the MSF slalom test...

I?ll counter that the ERC is ?a waste of nice day?. While it won?t provide anything earth shaking for an already good rider, it does offer, at the very least, the opportunity to spend an entire day practicing good technique under the watchful eye of trained and experienced instructors in a very organized manner with an actual measurement (test). I can?t say enough for the value of practice with good feedback from someone besides yourself. Very few of us catch all of our own mistakes without help.

30 years of bicycle riding and racing. you would be surprised how much it helps.

Agreed. My sole transportation from age 9 to 14 was a cheap ($65) no-name bicycle. Invaluable experience, IMHO.

I agree that I did not really learn much in the ERC, certainly not as much as it did in the BRC.

And, ... I did my first BRC along with my son, and that was after I had been riding for 25 years.

Back to the original question: "Where do you get your skills?"
Many skill have been acquired through experience, but an excellent resource is the Ride Like a Pro series of videos by Jerry Palladino, a retired motor officer trainer from Florida. The techniques he teaches are more for slow-speed control and some emergency maneuvers than they are for high-speed racing. But, in the real world, where many of us spend most of our time, we spend more time at slow speeds than we do clipping apexes and bevelling our footpegs.

Again, while I admit the ERC is not ?ground breaking?, I do feel it has excellent value as a practice session.

I second the person who said that it comes with riding experience.

I though I knew all about riding as a seventeen year old kid who'd been riding almost daily for a year.

Then I took a job as motorcycle messenger in downtown Washington, D.C....

LOL!!! I did the same thing at age 18. After a few months I realized that it wasn?t worth it as I was essentially risking my LIFE everyday for very average (read: could easily make it elsewhere) money and no benefits (employed a contractor). It was fun and VERY educational, just not worth the risk in the long run.

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

My "recipe" for acquiring and maintaining skill:

Go to School! - Nothing beats structured training by a good instructor. Even if you're unlucky enough to draw a crappy instructor, you still get structured training. Take EVERY class that you can afford that's of any interest to you. Upon re-entering the two-wheeled world I kind of have a deal with myself that I will take at least one course each year that I ride. The risk will always be there, but there's lot's that we can do to lower that risk and increase our ENJOYMENT through learning and practice. Last year I took Level one of both Keith Code Superbike School and OnOneWheel.com. Both classes were great fun and added to my experience and enjoyment of motorcycles. REALLY loved the Keith Code school. This year I'm lookin' to take another Keith Code course and/or Lee Parks Total Control course.

Read - lot's of good books have already been mentioned, but don't limit yourself. Read anything of substance that crosses your path. You may find that there's more than one way to approach a given skill or strategy. Ultimately, we each have to decide what works best for us.

Practice on your own - Whenever you get the chance (a clean, deserted lot or stretch road), practice techniques. Practice the techniques your LEAST comfortable with MORE than the techniques with which you are comfortable. Obviously, only practice on the street if, in your opinion, it is 100% safe to do so.

Ride - If you ride, you learn. Just be certain to apply your education and practice when you ride, otherwise it's easy to find yourself riding and reinforcing poor (often aka "natural") technique. As my guitar instructor once said "If you practice poor technique 16 hours a day, then you'll just get really good at playing with poor technique."

Best of luck!

 

[GQROD]

Taking the MSF course is mandatory to get the basics down. I would talk to the coaches, all of them at my class are cops and some ride motors so they see it ALL! and can tell you from experience.

The coaches ride in rider groups, you could join their rider groups, ride to a breakfast, lunch or charity event and immediately get feed back on your riding skills from all the members.

When i finally got my bike running safely and consistently i joined two local rider groups in order to get more time on my bike with members who have years of riding under theri belt so they can critique me.

Most riding however is common sense stuff, have a clear head, don't do anything stupid, don't be in a rush, don't ride beyond your limits and don't forget you have a right to be on the road with the cagers, so if they think you are goind too slow they can pass you-you stay put and stay safe!

 

[Mr. Brown]

Thanks for the feedback!

Thanks for the feedback!

Great stuff, guys.

An interesting by-product of this thread is that I know have an excuse to get a dirtbike.

"Honey, the guys say it'll keep me a better rider..."

I'll be looking into some of these books. I'm also trying to get in on some rides that are designed for all skill levels. I want to be able to see some of the pros do their thing, but not get dragged into a squid-fest.

 

[bwringer]

I'm the first to admit that I may have had an anomalous experience at the ERC. My instructors were blatantly not interested in even talking to someone who arrived wearing a full-face helmet and riding a non-Harley. I got zero attention or feedback all day, other than bearing the brunt of an ignorant anti-helmet diatribe from one of the instructors. Plus, they simply stopped the class and stood around jawing whenever a Harley broke down (and every single Harley in the class broke that day). They managed to get a few of them moving again, but with all the waiting around and nosepicking, we only got through half of the exercises.

OK, rant over -- I'm sure most ERC classes aren't like that. Mine was almost surreal it was so awful and strange.

ANYWAY...

Depending on where you live, you may have different opportunities available.

To get any track time or advanced instruction, I'd need to go to Chicago for track days and the TCR at Blackhawk Farms or Michigan for track days at Gingerman or Grattan -- quite a haul, but do-able with a trailer.

There's a very nice track near Indy (Putnam Park) but the track days specifically require late-model sportbikes and full one-piece leathers, and little in the way of instruction is available.

The BRC and ERC in Indiana are subsidized, which is a very nice benefit that makes them very affordable -- there's simply no excuse for skipping the BRC here.

 

[82Shafty]

I'm the first to admit that I may have had an anomalous experience at the ERC. My instructors were blatantly not interested in even talking to someone who arrived wearing a full-face helmet and riding a non-Harley. I got zero attention or feedback all day, other than bearing the brunt of an ignorant anti-helmet diatribe from one of the instructors. Plus, they simply stopped the class and stood around jawing whenever a Harley broke down (and every single Harley in the class broke that day). They managed to get a few of them moving again, but with all the waiting around and nosepicking, we only got through half of the exercises.

OK, rant over -- I'm sure most ERC classes aren't like that. Mine was almost surreal it was so awful and strange.

ANYWAY...

Depending on where you live, you may have different opportunities available.

To get any track time or advanced instruction, I'd need to go to Chicago for track days and the TCR at Blackhawk Farms or Michigan for track days at Gingerman or Grattan -- quite a haul, but do-able with a trailer.

There's a very nice track near Indy (Putnam Park) but the track days specifically require late-model sportbikes and full one-piece leathers, and little in the way of instruction is available.

The BRC and ERC in Indiana are subsidized, which is a very nice benefit that makes them very affordable -- there's simply no excuse for skipping the BRC here.

I've often wondered if a 30 year old bike could pass tech for one of these current track days. I don't think they would get a big kick out of my plexi 3 fairing LOL.

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

There's a very nice track near Indy (Putnam Park) but the track days specifically require late-model sportbikes and full one-piece leathers, and little in the way of instruction is available.

I've often wondered if a 30 year old bike could pass tech for one of these current track days. I don't think they would get a big kick out of my plexi 3 fairing LOL.

The way I see it, a 1980's (or so) GS IS a "late" model bike...relative to motorcycling history.

 

[Dave_17954]

Both directions? I hate to tell ya, but if you're only turning one direction, you aint doing a figure 8!



*EDIT* unless you meant backwards....

yea thats what I meant....:-\\\. ever go to the local roller rink and skate in one direction all night then at the very end they let you skate in the opposite....feels totally different even tho you can skate good your using a whole different set of muscles going the other way. kinda like riding we're so used to doing the same things day after day when you throw in something different it just makes you more efficient at handling your ride....

 

[tone]

Sorry guys but riding skills come from riding & nothing else, you may pick up tips from a book or an internet site but for an inexperianced rider to put these into practice is near to impossible imo !

The best way to gain these skills while riding is in the company of a qualified instructor (aim, ama, dsa or police advanced riders preferably) failing that a good rider who's been at it for years will be able to pass on the skills up to a point just by allowing you to follow him or her at a nice steady (slow) pace

The keys to a good rider are in no particular order .... observation, control & most of all practice practice practice, but dont try to run before you can walk ..... it hurts

cheers tone

 

[Flaggo60]

These are all great replies and I'm going to check out a couple of the books recommended. (I'm a great believer in the tuneup rider skills courses, but that said, I haven't taken one for years. Maybe I should again).

I will add one thing, and it would apply mainly to those of us blessed with a winter shutdown no-ride season. The most critical part of my riding season, and I have been riding for many seasons now, is taking the first few rides in the spring. You would be amazed at how stale your skills get after a few months of running nothing but a snowblower.

Everybody restores their skills in their own way, I guess. Me, I try to stay out of much traffic and on the two-lane back roads until all the smart riding thoughts come back. Because of the many miles on the road in the past years, it doesn't take too long to get back up to my riding comfort level again.

 

[tkent02]

These are all great replies and I'm going to check out a couple of the books recommended. (I'm a great believer in the tuneup rider skills courses, but that said, I haven't taken one for years. Maybe I should again).

I will add one thing, and it would apply mainly to those of us blessed with a winter shutdown no-ride season. The most critical part of my riding season, and I have been riding for many seasons now, is taking the first few rides in the spring. You would be amazed at how stale your skills get after a few months of running nothing but a snowblower.

Everybody restores their skills in their own way, I guess. Me, I try to stay out of much traffic and on the two-lane back roads until all the smart riding thoughts come back. Because of the many miles on the road in the past years, it doesn't take too long to get back up to my riding comfort level again.

Very true, if I go a week without riding my timing, steering, judging inertia and planning for changes in traction is off enough to notice. Make little boo boos and miscorrections for a few minutes. Even after just a couple days off I am noticeably not well calibrated to the motorcycle at first.

 

[bwringer]

If you have more than one bike, it's also a challenge to learn the trick of recalibrating yourself when you hop from one to the other.

For several years, my GS850 was my only bike, and I learned its limits and abilities extremely well. When I got my VX800, it was a little shocking to find that above 8/10ths, I wasn't absolutely, totally, instinctively sure how the bike would act.

It took a lot of riding time to get up to speed on the VX, and to this day, I'm still more comfortable riding the GS850 hard, even though the VX800 is lighter and the frame, tires, and suspension are much more capable.

The GS850 flexes and flaps when pushed hard, but I know deep in my guts exactly how it's going to flex and flap.

 

[heathen]

bringer i have the same problem with going from the gs to the gsxr. altough i find myself riding the gsxr like the gs it's much safer that way.

 

[Sandy]

I've read a few of the posts and everyone seems to pretty well on track with what to. A few tips I've used for people over the years is to always ride within your comfort zone and only push your boundaries when you feel comfortable about it. Key words here are "your", not someone elses. Always ride with a purpose whether it be at low speed or high speed. By that I mean make a point of always knowing where you want the motorcycle to go, why and put it there. Try different techniques on the same stretch of twisty road like riding at 75% but using a racing line, or to see how smooth you can ride try to see how fast you can go down that same road without using your brakes. Practice to see how weird the bike feels if you have to brake hard while leaned over hard - obviously you should approach this experiment a bit at a time. LOL. Try some brake races with your buddies. The throttle can get you into trouble and the brakes can get you out of trouble, better to know the latter before you need it. The main thing is to get lots of seat time in and have fun playing around a bit while you're at it. If you spend a little time practicing different things while out for a ride you'll be surprised how quickly your skill level will improve without having to scare yourself silly. Good luck, ride safe.

 

[spyug]

All good stuff. I'm big on all the books mentioned and read them through over the winter months.The David Hough's books can't be beat and I have the new series on order for my buddy's birthday coming up next month ( he of the Honda 250 scooter seducing me fame).

As friend Tone says, however, there is no substitute for seat time. You can "know" what to do in a situation from your book learning but you have to train your muscle memory to react on instinct. No time to think when things go "pear shaped" as our Limey buddies say. Ride, practice, ride, practice, ride and ride some more.

I haven't tried it yet myself but would like to this year. Track time.
Some pro training and then perhaps some track days. Lots of guys on my local forum swear by it for a great tuneup for skills.

A lot of the guys have mentioned a history in bicycle riding and if its good enough for the Motogp guys to keep in shape then it should work for us too. As a recent diagnosed Type 2 Diabetic patient, I need more exercise and I think I'll be getting the mountain bike down from its ceiling hook this year.

In addition to the reading and riding, I think it is important to be in good shape so exercise is important. Hard to ride right if everything is kinked up.

Good post guys and gals.

Cheers,
Spyug

 

[bwringer]

In addition to the reading and riding, I think it is important to be in good shape so exercise is important. Hard to ride right if everything is kinked up.

Good post guys and gals.

Cheers,
Spyug

Good thought -- the better your body works, the better you ride.

On a semi-related note, ear plugs made an enormous difference in increasing my level of concentration and reducing fatigue over a long day.

Plus, as a side benefit, I'll still be able to hear when I get older.

Anything that allows you to be less distracted, more comfortable, and more alert will make you a better rider, whether that's tweaking your gear, your bike, or yourself.

 

[kerrfunk]

this thread = required reading

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

Just to clarify, reading is GREAT! Lot's can be learned IN CONCEPT from books, but to APPLY those concepts it is absolutely necessary to practice them on "the range" (a safe, empty lot) and/or the street. Ideally, this is how to take the book education and make it a part of your skill set:

1) Read the book - in total or just the bits your working on
2) Pick ONE thing at a time to practice. More than one and it's easy to lose focus.
3) Re-read the book material on the ONE thing you will now practice.
4) If at all possible, find a "spotter/coach" that can observe your practice.
5) Practice the technique. In most cases, 10-30 minutes is plenty of time for new techniques for most folks for the initial session. During this time, if you have a coach/spotter, they s/b doing just that. Since they can see things about your own riding that you cannot the feedback from them will help you learn the technique better and MUCH more quickly.
6) Take a break. Review. Repeat as needed, same day or another day. Just be sure to stop when you're tired, unfocused or frustrated. Just like all riding, you'll do your best when you're in top mental and physical shape.

Have fun!