I've acquired a vintage mystery frame Real head-scratcher, any guesses appreciated!

[Guest]

Hi All,
A local was clearing out his garage and with no knowledge at all sold me a frame, tank, and wheels. For the price I decided I'd use the tank as a temporary for my Francis Barnett project until funds permit me to ship over another lot of parts from across the pond. Anyway, took it all, and now I'm scratching my head. The tank is clearly a BSA, looks like an A65-type shape, chrome and black. But the frame... At first it looked like the DKW RT125 or one of the Allies' copies, namely a BSA Bantam, however some chat with the gents on a Bantam forum quickly dismissed that seeing as this has a separate transmission mount as well as the plunger arms being fabricated rather than cast on the Bantams.

http://imgur.com/a/RYXLc#s0Zz8UK

http://imgur.com/a/pGBA5#Ojy23GC

Unique Identifiers I found:
-Plunger suspension (so not a Hummer I'm guessing)
-Welded-on passenger handle (only seen this on the DKW RT250, please advise if it was a feature on Bantams)
-I'm not confident the wheels match the frame, but the REAR wheel has a speedo drive gear. I'm just a youngin' but I've never seen that in my life.

-VIN is stamped on the freakin' wishbone. VIN turns up nothing remotely close looking at most major manufacturer's pre-1960.


I've gone down about a dozen roads as to it's national origin, right now I'm agreeing with a few that wonder if it's an Eastern copy of a Western-style bike. The VIN apparently having a roman numeral and being stamped ever-so neatly is certainly odd. It was extremely hard to find this one with 3 coats of paint so it's not impossible that there's another one, but I stripped-down the stem and found nothing. It's also worth noting that the gear drive on the wheel is Japanese but from a manufacturer that I can't find ANY record of. And again, seeing as the tank does not fit the frame there's no rule saying the wheels do either.

Does anyone here have any guesses or ideas about where else to look? I honestly can't even tell if this thing is 1930's or 1950's.

[rustybronco]

The seat platform looks contrived as does the tail light. Other than that, no clue as to the manufacturer.

[rustybronco]

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fcybermotorcycle.com%2Fgallery%2Fariel%2Fimages%2FAriel-1949-Colt-HnH.jpg&sp=c651553dfa635198f67fa85c10d112ae

Ariel...

[G.S.Joe]

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/sho...7fa85c10d112ae

Ariel...

I was thinking the same since there are so many Ariel models I don't know, but I looked through whatever I could find with no luck. The arms for the plungers on mine are flat on top/bottom and FAT and fabricated, those look cast and are definitely a lot thinner. That and the passenger pegs/mounts are very different. If I recall the B31s were very similar but once you got an overhead of the frame the wishbones are supported entirely differently as well. Last, I couldn't find any examples of them with a welded-on handle like on my frame.


I thought the same about the seat, however it's very well made and the bike was clearly made to be a 2-seater so I'm not 100% confident. The tail light, yes, likely an aftermarket, and the fender seems to have been stylized. That's one of the reasons I'm not wondering if there's a BSA model I'm missing since doing that to the fender was extremely popular on BSAs later whereas I've never seen a bobbed Ariel. Though I'm sure they exist.

[rustybronco]

There's always an Ariel forum you could ask.

[G.S.Joe]

I think that's what it's going to get down to, although not just Ariel. I've already been on my big forum, chopcult, here, BSA/Bantam, Facebook groups, and contacted a few antique experts across the pond. Seeing the script to the serial number (and the location) is pointing me to tiring-out the vintage Jap forums next. Then Ariel and maybe more BSA, and the laundry-list of UK manufacturers, oh, and can't forget DKW which this REALLY looks like aside from minor differences.

I'm actually enjoying this a bit. Learning a ton. I had no idea that in Japan there was a huge market/battle for bikes before the Big 4 pushed-thru in the 60's.

[BigD_83]

That flat bar used for the seat frame looks out of character, like it wasn't stock.

The way the frame contours at the shock looks like an Ariel as RustyBronco pointed out, but I'm no means an expert in the area.

What's with the Chinese (Yuh Shin) hub? I'm leaning towards Chinese knock-off. The grab handle makes me think it was hooked up to a sidecar, but the second set of footpegs don't mesh with that thought. Can't be British if it did have a sidecar on the right, can it?

[steveb922]

Lots of early Japanese motorcycles here:

http://www.gt-rider.com/se-asia-motorcycling/threads/early-japanese-motorcycles.10766/

[G.S.Joe]

That flat bar used for the seat frame looks out of character, like it wasn't stock.

The way the frame contours at the shock looks like an Ariel as RustyBronco pointed out, but I'm no means an expert in the area.

What's with the Chinese (Yuh Shin) hub? I'm leaning towards Chinese knock-off. The grab handle makes me think it was hooked up to a sidecar, but the second set of footpegs don't mesh with that thought. Can't be British if it did have a sidecar on the right, can it?

I agree about the seat, but I'll have to get some pictures closer. I'm wondering if this was some builder's franken-bike 50 years ago or something. As jalopy as that seat looks from 5 feet, up close it's clear it wasn't a hack-job. If it were tubular I'd be sure it was original.


Yuh Shin isn't the hub, it's the speedo drive gear which is on the rear wheel oddly enough.


As far as the handle, I've seen it on something like the DKW RT250 that was licensed to basically any Allied company after WWII. Just look at the similarities: http://thonfeld-classic-parts.de/Web...D/IMG_2681.JPG

Unfortunately it's a 1-piece frame and the mounts are a smidge different, but the plunger sections is absolutely identical as far as I can see. I don't know that the handle denotes a sidecar in this case. I like your thinking of a Chinese/Asian knockoff, though the quality seems to be at least as good as whatever it's a copy of....

[GregT]

Don't fret over the seat frame - it looks right for a seat base of the post war period. When I looked at the pics i though Triumph Terrier but it's not.
I'd pick it's a small fourstroke with separate gearbox. Fourstroke as twostrokes of the period are usually unit construction.
I'd have a trawl through pics of early 50's Jawas and CZ's and anything else from Eastern Europe of the early 50's as the curved main frame tube is characteristic of that period and region. The British frame builders didn't bend tube like that....

[G.S.Joe]

Don't fret over the seat frame - it looks right for a seat base of the post war period. When I looked at the pics i though Triumph Terrier but it's not.
I'd pick it's a small fourstroke with separate gearbox. Fourstroke as twostrokes of the period are usually unit construction.
I'd have a trawl through pics of early 50's Jawas and CZ's and anything else from Eastern Europe of the early 50's as the curved main frame tube is characteristic of that period and region. The British frame builders didn't bend tube like that....

I'd tend to agree with the fourstroke if the wheels do match the frame. That's a pretty big sprocket, I'm guessing they were making up for lack of torque.

[GregT]

I'd tend to agree with the fourstroke if the wheels do match the frame. That's a pretty big sprocket, I'm guessing they were making up for lack of torque.

Looking at the pics I wonder if the steering head has been tweaked to be steeper. If it was used as a trials bike that would account for the big sprocket.