Suzuki Bond #4, ThreeBond 1194/1184/1207B???

[Chuck78]

What are the pro's & cons of these products when reassembling GS engine cases? I read several posts where people said that they were going to use RTV, & then others jumped in & said "NO! DON'T DO THAT! BEEN THERE, DONE THAT."

Ray mentioned in another post that he uses Threebond 1207B, & that was the best thing he has ever used. It costs $20 a tube & is silicone based.

Z1 sells Threebond 1194, but Threebond no longer lists it on their website. From the "semi-drying" part of the description, it looks like Threebond 1184 is the only comparable offering. Z1's 1194:
ThreeBond Liquid Gasket 1194 $10.39 Ea
3.5oz tube - semi drying gasket sealant - excellent for crankcases. Three-Bond released 1194 as a replacement for 1104. AKA Yama-Bond

Neither 1194 or 1104 show up on the threebond website, but 1184 & 1207B do:

http://www.threebond.co.jp/en/product/series/sealants/s_s11001300.html

http://www.threebond.co.jp/en/product/series/sealants/s_s1200.html

I think my google search for Suzuki Bond No. 4 turned up webpage titles of "...Suzukibond 1207b," so maybe that is best to use (+1 w/Ray's praise), & is the same as threebond 1207b? I have yet to read the applications or context of those search results. Bedtime reading here in a few. Ray wouldn't put that out there if it wasn't the best in his vast experiences with our bikes, but I suffer from a "need to know" geeking out on everything I do/build...

[Chuck78]

I referred back to some sections of the 1977-1982 GS750 Fours Clymer's manual that I had highlighted, and it says to apply Suzuki Bond No. 4 or Permatex Forma Gasket Non-hardening sealant No 2B.

It also mentioned to "spread a film of Suzuki Bond No. 1211 (or equivalent) to the cylinder block base o-rings to prevent leaks. Do not use Bond No. 4 as it will not withstand the high temperatures in this part of the engine." What is this product's equivalent, I wonder????

[Carter Turk]

ThreeBond 1211. Was going to try 1194, but had tube of 1211 that was super old (10 yrs.), I ended up poking it with pin to still find a good area in the tube. If you can't find what RR is suggesting this is good stuff. I've split the cases three times, w/o removing the head over the years and never had a case seal issue. Torn gaskets don't seem to matter either.

[Chuck78]

https://www.magicracing.com/mobile/ThreeBond-1184-Liquid-Gasket-Sealer-35oz-Replaces-1194-1104_p_84.html

ThreeBond 1184 replaces 1194, 1104, Yamabond, & Suzuki Bond No. 4

So I am up in the air on 1184 (rubber based?) vs 1207B (silicone based). 1207B may be a bit more money. OEM says 1184 (superceded), Ray says 1207B is AWESOME, & Suzuki rebrands the 1207B for use on newer bikes even.

I am assuming ThreeBond 1211 is the same as Suzuki Bond 1211, which my manual says to coat the cylinder base o-rings with.

[Nessism]

If you order 1194 from Z1 they will send you 1184 instead.

As far as 1184 vs. 1207B is concern, you can't go wrong with either. The 1207B is hard to find and more money. In my opinion it's not worth the trouble of chasing it down.

[rustybronco]

I guess I should be careful with my tube of 1104 then?

[rapidray]

1207B is EASY to find! I walk into my local Suzuki dealer & ask "Can you get me a tube of 1207B please?" Inside of a few days he calls me & tells me to come pick it up! I usually need a new tube every 1.5-2 years & I use it a LOT! At 20 bucks a tube, LESS than once a year, for something that has NEVER failed me, I would call that CHEAP!!!
Ray.

[tkent02]

I have been using an old tube of 1184 I've had for years. I don't do very many engines. What's better about the 1207B, Ray?

[Chuck78]

Hmmm... The 1207B is gaining even more appeal than the 1184, as if you will read in that last linked webpage I posted, the 1104, 1194, and all of the rebranded/re-colored versions were discontinued due to containing chemicals now declared as very hazardous. The 1207B product descriptions do not ever mention it as being intended for use as a case sealer, where as the 1184 and predecessors all are described as semi-hardening case sealants. The semi-hardening part is the key apparently, as you do not want dried globs of silicone/etc breaking off and floating around in your crank bearings or clogging your oil pickup tube, as I have read of happening amongst the blunders of using RTV liberally and/or in places it was not indented.

I am wondering however if I can find a case sealant as good as the Threebond 1207B/1184 in a Permatex brand at the local autoparts store (Permatex Forma Gasket No. 2?), and if I can cross reference the Threebond 1211 directly over to a permatex product (is it just like a high temp RTV?)????

[Nessism]

I think the Permatex Ultra Gray will work fine. That said, I'm using 1184.

[chuck hahn]

I use the 1207B...but it aint cheap. It doesnt leak either.

[Chuck78]

1207B is described by Threebond as a silicone-based liquid gasket/flange surface sealer. Once cured (it does solidify, I take it), it forms a rubber-like elastic body, and it has excellent vibration absorption property as well as shock- and heat-resistance. Highly resistant to oil, chemicals and coolants; temperature range -60°C to 200°C. Water resistant and LLC resistant non-slumping paste with excellent adhesion properties.

1184 is described by Threebond as a flange surface and pipe thread sealer, Semi-drying, oil resistant, chemical resistant, For sealing flange surfaces, screw sections and cases. Excellent resistance to water, oil, gasoline, coolants and chemicals; temperature range -40°C to 150°C

1211 (not even mentioned on threebond's current website) Silicone-based semi-hardening low viscosity slow set (tac free: 90 min) liquid gasket. Excellent chemical, oil, & heat (-60°C to 250°C) resistance. Seals: oil pans, valve covers, cylinder heads, cylinder block, etc

1215B (also branded for Kawasaki and Subaru, etc) general-purpose silicone-based liquid gasket, Excellent engine-oil resistance, Excellent gear-oil resistance, heat resistant (maybe same usage as 1211 on the block o-rings?)



Wow, the 1211 and 1215 are pricey, $20/$35 and up... I will have to compare permatex stuff better now that I have compiled these descriptions from multiple sources.

[Chuck78]

I found 1207B for $22, ThreeBond 1184 is $12.95... hmmm...
ThreeBond 1211 is $22.75 just for 250 degree celsius heat resistance (higher than permatex?) I assume

The ads for 1211 also claim that it is a case sealer. It has the highest heat resistance (better for a higher compression large cc engine), so I wonder if I could just use 1211 for the o-rings and the cases? It strikes me that there had to be a reason that Suzuki specified 1104/1194/1184 (Suzuki Bond No 4) for the cases at the same time as specifying 1211 for the base gasket o-rings... why not 1211 for both? 1211 seems similar to 1207B... I will dig further later on and see what other bikes Suzuki recommends 1207B on, as I think I recall many people talking about using it as a case sealer. Why would Suzuki have recommended a different case sealer in the factory manual then?

[Chuck78]

1207B is EASY to find! I walk into my local Suzuki dealer & ask "Can you get me a tube of 1207B please?" Inside of a few days he calls me & tells me to come pick it up! I usually need a new tube every 1.5-2 years & I use it a LOT! At 20 bucks a tube, LESS than once a year, for something that has NEVER failed me, I would call that CHEAP!!!
Ray.

Why did you stop using 1194/1184? I take it in your rigorously ran race engines, you have had those leak on you? Do they not solidify completely, compared to the silicone based 1207B?

Looking to order one or the other and some 1211 ASAP. building a second (4'x8') workbench tonight to begin the teardown process of two donor engines to combine the best parts of the bottom ends with the bored out 850 cylinders and a nice fresh head (start next week). Thanks everyone.

[Nessism]

Just looked through a few different Suzuki manuals...

GS650 recommends Suzuki Bond 1215
GS1000 is 1201
GS850 is 1207B

Seems to me they all will work just fine. Don't overthink it.