Painting my 450

[pete]

Ok, I called and spoke with the tech. guys where I bought the paint today and the acrylic clear is going to be no good, useless with fuel. Apparently they get a lot of guys restoring bikes that never ride them which is why they let me buy it... at least I have gun cleaner now with the acrylic thinners

Anyway, I tried the other place for the Omni stuff but once again everything is in litre containers, so that was over $110 just for the clear and hardener, and the reducer was on top of that so I didn't even bother asking...

I called the original place back because I couldn't remember what the price was and it ended up as $90 for the clear and hardener, and if I need any reducer I can use the one I already have with the base coat, so I'm gonna pull the trigger on that tomorrow and the house mate will pick it up for me seeing as he works literally around the corner from them.

That should get the paint side of things sorted...

I got down to the garage tonight to start sanding the tail piece and I think that's all I'll be doing between now and painting day...

Here's how it set overnight:



And after about 45 minutes of sanding with 240 grit:



What's level there is very smooth, but it clogs the paper up in about 30 seconds to a minute of sanding. I tried wet sanding but that seemed to make it a bit worse, so I went back to dry sanding.

I think I'll be able to get it reasonably flat and smooth but I think there will still be some areas needing a bit more of a build up.

If that's the case, I've still got probably a quarter to a third of the putty tin left so I should be able to build it up a bit more in the low areas.

As it stands now I'm going to lose Wednesday night this week as I have to work, but that means I may not end up at work on Thursday and I may get some daytime time on it depending how things go. Not holding my breath though...

[pete]

Ok, I just realised I need to ask possibly the stupidest question...

The only paint I've used so far has been house paint or POR 15 paint, which means you open the tin and stir before using.

With the 2K stuff, am I safe to assume I simply open the tin, pop it and the hardener/reducer in the mixing cup and then stir? As in I don't need to stir it in the tin?

They don't mention anything about stirring anywhere that I can see...

[rustybronco]

Pop open the tin, stir the contents for 5 minutes, pour it into the measuring cup, lightly shake the hardener and add the hardener to what's already in the mixing cup and stir again.

[nvr2old]

Ok, I called and spoke with the tech. guys where I bought the paint today and the acrylic clear is going to be no good, useless with fuel. Apparently they get a lot of guys restoring bikes that never ride them which is why they let me buy it... at least I have gun cleaner now with the acrylic thinners

Anyway, I tried the other place for the Omni stuff but once again everything is in litre containers, so that was over $110 just for the clear and hardener, and the reducer was on top of that so I didn't even bother asking...

I called the original place back because I couldn't remember what the price was and it ended up as $90 for the clear and hardener, and if I need any reducer I can use the one I already have with the base coat, so I'm gonna pull the trigger on that tomorrow and the house mate will pick it up for me seeing as he works literally around the corner from them.

That should get the paint side of things sorted...

I got down to the garage tonight to start sanding the tail piece and I think that's all I'll be doing between now and painting day...

Here's how it set overnight:



And after about 45 minutes of sanding with 240 grit:



What's level there is very smooth, but it clogs the paper up in about 30 seconds to a minute of sanding. I tried wet sanding but that seemed to make it a bit worse, so I went back to dry sanding.

I think I'll be able to get it reasonably flat and smooth but I think there will still be some areas needing a bit more of a build up.

If that's the case, I've still got probably a quarter to a third of the putty tin left so I should be able to build it up a bit more in the low areas.

As it stands now I'm going to lose Wednesday night this week as I have to work, but that means I may not end up at work on Thursday and I may get some daytime time on it depending how things go. Not holding my breath though...

It might be a bit late to chime in on your tail section, or any other plastic filler work, but it's a lot easier to sand it before it hardens up completely. When it's in a "green" state (not quite hard, but a little tacky to the touch) you can sculpt it really easily with 36 grit. Have a wire brush handy to clean your sandpaper off, because it'll clog up quickly. It comes out much straighter that way, too. 240 is hardly gonna cut it after it's dry, and that's what you want..to cut the filler quickly. Then follow up with another thin coat to fill the 36 grit scratches, then repeat the process with 80 grit. Let it dry and then go over it lightly with 180. Viola, it's ready for primer. This whole process can be done over the coarse of just an hour or so.

[Johnny Drummond]

some advice

Pete, I'm glad to see that you have got to the paint at last!,just a few pieces of advice for you(I've been a paint sprayer for 20 years),don't wet sand the putty as if it is like Isopon body filler for cars(can't see the tin that well) it is porous and will suck the water in and the filler will fall off or blister,dust is the enemy for painters, dampen the floor down around where you want to work but don't put enough water down it splashes up to settle jewel like on the fresh paint-I watched with great amusement an apprentice getting a kick in the ass for this,masking tape comes in 22,26&40mm widths but for non bleeding edges go into your local butchers shop and ask to buy a roll of the tape that they put around the neck of the bags they put the meat in if they want more than 60 cents-go find another butcher!! put the butchers tape on first then the masking tape roughly haf way across it till you get the rough width you want then another run of the butchers tape and finish with the masking tape.on the paint tin there will be a number for the paint company-invest the time to call and ask to speak to their tech department they will give you all the advice you need, we painters are a funny lot(I think its all the fumes we breathe in) and some just don't like giving away what they consider as hard earned knowledge-its a generational thing as in "I had to learn the hard way so can you" just go to the manufacturer explain you are a novice and this is the most important thing-IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY TELL YOU, KEEP ASKING TILL YOU DO.Now some hints on equipment,go to the local home supply depot(we have B&Q) and spend a few dollars on 2 halogen spotlights- you know the ones you put on a wall to light up the outside of the house as you need the best light you can get, mount them at roughly the level you want to spray at as when you start the room will fill pretty quickly with mist and overhead lights just won't be any use, get 2 brush shafts an a couple of car exhaust "u"bolts that way you can vary the height if the lights easily,put them in 3 or 4 bricks with the holes in and you have a stand that can be easily dismantled and stored.Look online for 3M masks they are plastic with 2 cheek pads filled with filter material they are £15-18 here and are essential- DO NOT BREAHE the paint fumes in-sure the lights are pretty right up until you puke and pass out also if you feel dizzy get out,when I was an apprentice I was using a plain dust mask with no filtration, finished the job walked outside and woke up 30 minutes later with a pounding headache, according to the other guys(once they had finished laughing) that I just keeled over.Right where was I,oh yes the filters your room mate got you are prefect but if you are ever stuck you can use ladies tights these work just as well and are cheaper-you just have to put up with the funny looks you get in the store.The other thing is be careful using acrylic thinners as a gun wash I would try TETROSYL standard thinners it is cheap(no more than $20 a gallon) and will clean all the equipment no matter what primer/ paint/lacquer you use.Hope that this hasn't bored you too much, HAVE FUN.Johnny

[pete]

Pop open the tin, stir the contents for 5 minutes, pour it into the measuring cup, lightly shake the hardener and add the hardener to what's already in the mixing cup and stir again.

Thanks Dale, I knew it would be a simple answer... they just don't put answers for dummies on the tins...

It might be a bit late to chime in on your tail section, or any other plastic filler work, but it's a lot easier to sand it before it hardens up completely. When it's in a "green" state (not quite hard, but a little tacky to the touch) you can sculpt it really easily with 36 grit. Have a wire brush handy to clean your sandpaper off, because it'll clog up quickly. It comes out much straighter that way, too. 240 is hardly gonna cut it after it's dry, and that's what you want..to cut the filler quickly. Then follow up with another thin coat to fill the 36 grit scratches, then repeat the process with 80 grit. Let it dry and then go over it lightly with 180. Viola, it's ready for primer. This whole process can be done over the coarse of just an hour or so.

Aaaah thanks Larry! To be perfectly honest I think the putty I'm using was just a bad choice, I think I needed to be using some body filler instead.

The biggest issue with it is that once I apply it, it starts to sag and run with gravity as I think it's really only designed for relatively small areas, not a larger area like I'm doing.

I actually tried cleaning the 240 grit with a broken hacksaw blade tonight as I don't have a wire brush handy (except with the welder), and while it helped, you're right that the 240 is just not cutting it at all, literally.

I'm thinking this is probably a better idea although I'm not sure how well it will apply over the putty:

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/3M-Fibreglass-Filler-500g.aspx?pid=220287#Description

Given I'm going to be working from 10:30 tomorrow night, I should get most if not all Thursday off work, so I may get time to get some much coarser sand paper and maybe even a tub of that filler.

Also, the 2K primer I got can also be used as a high build primer, to that's probably going to be the best way to apply it over the tail piece to make sure I do have a nicely smooth and shaped finish ready for paint.

Pete, I'm glad to see that you have got to the paint at last!,just a few pieces of advice for you(I've been a paint sprayer for 20 years),don't wet sand the putty as if it is like Isopon body filler for cars(can't see the tin that well) it is porous and will suck the water in and the filler will fall off or blister

Wow thanks Johnny, I'll split your reply up because I think you just blew my mind (in a good way) for about the fourth time in this thread

The putty I'm using says explicitly it can be dry or wet sanded, but as I said above to Larry, I really think it's just the wrong thing to be using.

,dust is the enemy for painters, dampen the floor down around where you want to work but don't put enough water down it splashes up to settle jewel like on the fresh paint-I watched with great amusement an apprentice getting a kick in the ass for this,

Ok, I'll actually be making a "booth" of sorts by putting drop sheets up around three sides, one on the roof which is actually the underneath of the upstairs floor, and one on the garage floor, so I'm not sure how easily I'll be able to dampen that down, but thanks for letting me know and I'll see what I can do.

masking tape comes in 22,26&40mm widths but for non bleeding edges go into your local butchers shop and ask to buy a roll of the tape that they put around the neck of the bags they put the meat in if they want more than 60 cents-go find another butcher!! put the butchers tape on first then the masking tape roughly haf way across it till you get the rough width you want then another run of the butchers tape and finish with the masking tape.

That sounds like a damn good idea! I have 24mm tape and I got what's supposed to be a good roll today when I got the clear coat, but that's a really cool idea. I'll have to see if they'll sell me a roll on Thursday if it works out like I hope it will.

on the paint tin there will be a number for the paint company-invest the time to call and ask to speak to their tech department they will give you all the advice you need, we painters are a funny lot(I think its all the fumes we breathe in) and some just don't like giving away what they consider as hard earned knowledge-its a generational thing as in "I had to learn the hard way so can you" just go to the manufacturer explain you are a novice and this is the most important thing-IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY TELL YOU, KEEP ASKING TILL YOU DO.

I think I'm pretty covered on this one now, I understand the flash off time, tape time, etc. etc. and the tech. guy at MPA said to make sure I call him if I have any further questions whatsoever, so I should be good in that regard.

I think probably my only question about that would be how long can I wait between priming and painting... as in if I get to prime this Saturday will it be too long to wait 9 days before doing the base coat?

Now some hints on equipment,go to the local home supply depot(we have B&Q) and spend a few dollars on 2 halogen spotlights- you know the ones you put on a wall to light up the outside of the house as you need the best light you can get, mount them at roughly the level you want to spray at as when you start the room will fill pretty quickly with mist and overhead lights just won't be any use, get 2 brush shafts an a couple of car exhaust "u"bolts that way you can vary the height if the lights easily,put them in 3 or 4 bricks with the holes in and you have a stand that can be easily dismantled and stored.

Cool! Local auto store has these, so as long as they have stock I should be right.

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/SCA-150W-PORTABLE-HALOGEN-FLOODLIGHT.aspx?pid=167237#Description

Given the area I'm in and the number of pieces I'm doing I think 1 will be ok, but I get why you say 2 to avoid shadows and things.

I do have a portable hand held light already as well, so between those I should be right I think.

Look online for 3M masks they are plastic with 2 cheek pads filled with filter material they are £15-18 here and are essential- DO NOT BREAHE the paint fumes in-sure the lights are pretty right up until you puke and pass out also if you feel dizzy get out,when I was an apprentice I was using a plain dust mask with no filtration, finished the job walked outside and woke up 30 minutes later with a pounding headache, according to the other guys(once they had finished laughing) that I just keeled over.Right where was I,

I've been using the paper masks when doing my sanding and alloy polishing and things like that, but I ordered one of these today:

http://www.diytools.com.au/Air-Respirator-Double-Filter-SFP501.html

I know it says for low toxicity, but I figure I should really only be in the "booth" for a couple of minutes at a time with a 10 or 15 minute break between, so as long as I'm careful and sensible and get out for fresh air I should be good to go.

I also got some fog free goggles for my eyes:

http://www.diytools.com.au/Chemical-Goggles-Fog-Free-Lens.html

oh yes the filters your room mate got you are prefect but if you are ever stuck you can use ladies tights these work just as well and are cheaper-you just have to put up with the funny looks you get in the store.The other thing is be careful using acrylic thinners as a gun wash I would try TETROSYL standard thinners it is cheap(no more than $20 a gallon) and will clean all the equipment no matter what primer/ paint/lacquer you use.Hope that this hasn't bored you too much, HAVE FUN.Johnny

Haha glad I got my mate to get me those filters now

As to the thinners, is it particularly bad to continue with the ones I have? The reason for that is that I'm now way over budget and I still need to get some things.

Is it sufficient to just make sure I spray the gun long enough to clear all the thinners out after cleaning or should I really look at buying something else? A quick search is just showing me standard thinners locally so I'm not sure how hard it will be for me to locate the Tetrosyl ones.

And no you definitely didn't bore me Johnny, everyone's advice is helping me out immensely and I really appreciate all of it

[pete]

Ok, so the house mate got the clear coat and a roll of good masking tape today:



And as well as buying the mask and goggles mentioned in the previous post, I also got a water separator:

http://www.diytools.com.au/Water-Separator.html

And then tonight I had a good close look at how the tail piece was coming along. The short answer is there's still a long way to go:



If I had've read Larry's reply earlier, I may have just left it alone for the moment, but I didn't so I got some more sanding done, cleaned it up with a damp rag then some metho and popped some more putty on to fill some obvious low places.

The front of the top has a couple of definite indents and the very end of the right side is very obviously higher than those spots, so I taped a bit of cardboard up against it in an effort to keep the putty there to dry because last time it all sort of sagged away:



I have a feeling it will still sag away...

So I got some more on in some other obvious low parts, and you can see it already starting to sag:



So I attempted to touch that up a bit after letting it sit for a bit:



See how it turns out tomorrow night but I think I need to think seriously about that body filler...

[rustybronco]

http://www.de-beer.com/TDS/agb/TDSmatrixDBL2-A.pdf
(the temp range your hardener is used for)

[nvr2old]

Pete, don't be afraid to use some 36 grit on that tail. Sometimes (because it's not sanding off) people have a tendency to keep adding filler when it's not necessary. It looks like you have lots on there. Sand it aggressively until you start reaching the fiberglass. Your low spots will show themselves when you've taken it down as far as it will go before sanding into the base material. I'm assuming you're using a block with your sandpaper? If not, that's critical to get the shape even and flat. A good quality plastic filler is also crucial. More expensive for sure, but it works so well that the savings in time-spent (and problems down the road) is well worth it. Evercoat Rage Gold is the best I've ever used. It doesn't sag at all, dries quickly, sands beautifully with no pin holes, and would've filled your low spots in 2, or maybe 3 applications at most. I think you're correct in saying that what you're using is a spot filler and not an actual body filler. It's purpose is simply filling sand scratches, not voids. First thing you need to do at this point, is to get as much of it off of there as possible, otherwise it's gonna crack over time. It's just not designed to be used that thick. It's always a pain in the a$$ to "go backwards" especially when you've already spent the money and time that you have on it, but that's all part of the learning process, and, believe me, I've had to do it, too. I bite the bullet everyday when it comes to buying materials. I whine about the costs every time, but I've also learned that quality products, although expensive, have a value that can't be argued with in the time-savings they offer (because time is money), and the fact that they..more importantly..work.

[pete]

http://www.de-beer.com/TDS/agb/TDSmatrixDBL2-A.pdf
(the temp range your hardener is used for)

Aaah nice one Dale! Man am I glad I got you guys pointing this stuff out! Would've missed that completely...

Fortunately it looks like it wouldn't have mattered if I did miss it in this particular case because that all looks ok to me.

It should be between 25 to 30 maximum this time of year, but definitely won't be less than 20, so the 47-55 Hardener will be right as the area I'm painting won't even be as big as a car door in comparison, and the 1-151 Uni Thinner will also be right.

Phew

Pete, don't be afraid to use some 36 grit on that tail. Sometimes (because it's not sanding off) people have a tendency to keep adding filler when it's not necessary. It looks like you have lots on there. Sand it aggressively until you start reaching the fiberglass. Your low spots will show themselves when you've taken it down as far as it will go before sanding into the base material. I'm assuming you're using a block with your sandpaper? If not, that's critical to get the shape even and flat. A good quality plastic filler is also crucial. More expensive for sure, but it works so well that the savings in time-spent (and problems down the road) is well worth it. Evercoat Rage Gold is the best I've ever used. It doesn't sag at all, dries quickly, sands beautifully with no pin holes, and would've filled your low spots in 2, or maybe 3 applications at most. I think you're correct in saying that what you're using is a spot filler and not an actual body filler. It's purpose is simply filling sand scratches, not voids. First thing you need to do at this point, is to get as much of it off of there as possible, otherwise it's gonna crack over time. It's just not designed to be used that thick. It's always a pain in the a$$ to "go backwards" especially when you've already spent the money and time that you have on it, but that's all part of the learning process, and, believe me, I've had to do it, too. I bite the bullet everyday when it comes to buying materials. I whine about the costs every time, but I've also learned that quality products, although expensive, have a value that can't be argued with in the time-savings they offer (because time is money), and the fact that they..more importantly..work.

I won't be Larry, will try to pick some up tomorrow, or at least the lowest grit I can find. I don't recall how low I could go locally here.

Bummer on sanding it back, but I know what you're saying is right, and my gut is telling me the same... really wished I had've seen your reply earlier yesterday and just left it alone for the moment... oh well that's what it's like when you're learning

I was adding more last night because I could see the texture of the fibreglass in areas and that bit up top where I put the cardboard was really all over the shop so that the right side was very visibly higher than the rest. I definitely shouldn't have put more on except that one place where the cardboard is...

I've had a quick look and it seems I can only get the Rage Gold in 4KG tins for about $50 and I can't see it locally either, so I may have to try an alternative to that one. I think a 500g tin would be heaps for what I need.

I'll see what I can see tomorrow but I think I'll be restricted to the ones I posted early, fingers crossed they'll at least do the job well enough.

Oh, and yeah I'm sanding with a block, at least I got that bit right

Some further Googling has also answered my primer question from Johnny's reply and I won't even attempt to prime on Saturday as that will be far too long and I will have to prime and sand before I paint again. Best off just leaving it for now.

Thanks heaps again guys, I will just leave it alone tonight except I'll probably remove the cardboard, and I have to head into work at around 9:30 anyway... hopefully I can get some more stuff tomorrow...

[rustybronco]

First thing you need to do at this point, is to get as much of it off of there as possible, otherwise it's gonna crack over time. It's just not designed to be used that thick.

Bummer on sanding it back, but I know what you're saying is right, and my gut is telling me the same... really wished I had've seen your reply earlier yesterday and just left it alone for the moment... oh well that's what it's like when you're learning

Pete, strip it off...

Do you have any fibreglass resin and hardener left? chop up some fibreglass house insulation (or equivalent) and make a paste out of it and the fiberglass resin mixture. add the hardener to the resin, mix it up and add the chopped fiberglass. rough up the surface with 36-80 grit and apply the 'mixture' with a 'bondo' spreader to build up your low spots. sand it and finish it with body filler.

don't chop up the fibreglass too coarse or it won't spread smoothly and keep in mind until it sets up, you might have to keep moving it back into place.

[pete]

Pete, strip it off...

Do you have any fibreglass resin and hardener left? chop up some fibreglass house insulation (or equivalent) and make a paste out of it and the fiberglass resin mixture. add the hardener to the resin, mix it up and add the chopped fiberglass. rough up the surface with 36-80 grit and apply the 'mixture' with a 'bondo' spreader to build up your low spots. sand it and finish it with body filler.

don't chop up the fibreglass too coarse or it won't spread smoothly and keep in mind until it sets up, you might have to keep moving it back into place.

That's an awesome plan Dale! I have left over matting, resin, and hardener, so that should be nice and easy to do

I'll definitely give this a go and I'll get myself some low grit paper tomorrow so I can get all that existing crap off as well.

I think I'm going to have to stick with whatever body filler I can get my hands on and there's 3M stuff that should do the job ok I hope.

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/3M-Fibreglass-Filler-500g.aspx?pid=220287#Description

I'll have a good read of the can before parting with any $$$ though.

This is how it ended up tonight with the cardboard removed and you can see it still ended up sagging a bit and I really need to sand it back:



I've got to find some different safety goggles now too as they ran out of stock before shipping the ones I listed earlier, but at least I'm still getting the water separator and respirator mask.

[rustybronco]

Pete, don't chop the fibreglass too coarse or it will be hard to spread. on the other hand if you chop it too fine it won't stay in place when you spread it.

fiberglass it not going to be the easiest thing to sand so it would be best if used a powered sander. although an armstrong sander will work in a pinch.

a sanding mask is required as well.

[pete]

Pete, don't chop the fibreglass too coarse or it will be hard to spread. on the other hand if you chop it too fine it won't stay in place when you spread it.

fiberglass it not going to be the easiest thing to sand so it would be best if used a powered sander. although an armstrong sander will work in a pinch.

a sanding mask is required as well.

That makes sense, a bit of trial and error I guess...

A powered sander would be nice actually but I'm not sure if I have one that will be suitable... by that I mean the house mate has some power tools but I'm not sure exactly what he has in the way of sanders

Last time I sanded the fibreglass I just used the paper masks to stop sucking down any particles and had a pedestal fan blowing to keep the fumes away from my face, seemed to work ok and I suffered no ill effects...

[pete]

Ok, first things first... Dale and Larry take a bow, you saved my tail piece!!!

That putty was going to cause me major headaches if I didn't get rid of it and you'll see why shortly.

First of all though my house mate did his usual legendary magic trick and magic'd me up what he called a finishing sander with some 60 and 120 grit paper for it:



I got my water separator and respirator mask in the mail already:



That mask is actually rated for spray painting in well ventilated areas, so I should definitely be right with that.

I then got the flood light, some 60 and 120 grit sand paper for hand sanding, the fibreglass reinforced body filler, and some chemical splash proof fog-free goggles:



So safety wise and lighting wise I should be good for painting now I hope, and that fibreglass reinforced filler seemed like the best option of what was available and is sandable 20 minutes after application. Fingers crossed it does the job but it certainly can't be worse than that putty!

Anyway, donned my new goggles and a paper mask and got into that putty with the finishing sander and 60 grit paper.

I was able to get the bulk of it off but I really concentrated on the low areas that had too much build up of putty, and here's what it looked like:



It was still somewhat soft and pliable and basically just gummed up the sand paper. I tried the wire brush on the paper and it wouldn't budge it, so I chewed through a few sheets in the end:



This is a chunk that came out:



And some more: