'82 450 Igniter - Repair, Replace, or Make?

[pete]

If you do choose to use "a little waterproof box". Be sure to make a hole inthe bottom for drainage. Water proof boxes tend to be more resistant to the escape of water than the entrance.

There always these if you feel like shelling out... Maybe someone has posted this before, if it's a duplicate, my apologies

http://www.boyerbransden.com/suzuki.html

Good call there! It'll be mounted on a new electrics plate directly under the seat, so shouldn't get too wet, but a drainage hole is not a bad idea.

At this stage I suspect I'll stick with the diodes and resistors just insulated with heat shrink. I've made PCB's before back in college, but that was nearly 20 years ago and they had a proper etching tank etc. which made it a lot easier.

I believe there's a place here in Brissie that resells the Boyer Bransden modules, but they ain't cheap.

[bluewool]

Good call there! It'll be mounted on a new electrics plate directly under the seat, so shouldn't get too wet, but a drainage hole is not a bad idea.

At this stage I suspect I'll stick with the diodes and resistors just insulated with heat shrink. I've made PCB's before back in college, but that was nearly 20 years ago and they had a proper etching tank etc. which made it a lot easier.

I believe there's a place here in Brissie that resells the Boyer Bransden modules, but they ain't cheap.

Yeah, if you stand the electronics off the bottom a bit and add a drain in the low corner(as it's on the side stand) I usually tell apprentices to make the hole no bigger than 1/8"(you should need anything that big) so it doesn't get filled with bees! Nothing like being on a 30' extension ladder with a face full of bees!! exciting!

[pete]

Well, I did get a distracted and rushed first test done today which was a complete failure, but I'm going to write it off as not even tested due to the rushing.

At this stage, I'm not sure if the failure was my dodgy connections or the fact that I only hooked one ignition module up.

The dodgy connections are that I just wound some wires around the connectors (don't want to crimp or solder anything until it's tested) and I only had time to wire up one module. It's quite possible that with only one module, and therefore one pickup coil connected, that it doesn't actually generate a signal properly.

Hopefully tomorrow I can get both hooked up a little better and start some real testing.

No pic's at the moment either due to the rush... I hate rushing.

[pete]

Well I can see already that this is going to be far more painful than I thought, and it won't be fun, but if I succeed it will be rewarding.

If I don't succeed, it will probably be expensive... as in forking out for a Boyer Bransden or something.

Anyway, a pic of failure number 1:



That's the GS1000G type circuit hooked up there, and no go whatsoever. Left the black/white wire from the pickup coils not connected to anything and then I also tried connecting it to ground.

No spark either way.

I know those connections look dodgy, and I guess they are, but I did continuity checks on all of them to be sure they were connecting back to the harness correctly.

So, test number 2 was the KZ550 type circuit:



Still no go with that one. This has the black/white wire from the pickups connected in such a way as to give it some bias, or at least that's how it looks to me. Still no dice though.

I'm testing by passing a screwdriver across the pickup coil as if the crankshaft was spinning.

I did have a quick Google tonight to see if I could find some info on the modules I got so I could see if they really are compatible with the Wells units or not.

I found these:

http://www.mobiletron.com/a_eng_products_view.asp?FkindNo=F000002&SkindNo=S000001&Pd_Id=2153

http://www.mobiletron.com.tw/images/Product/P_SubFile1/f_596.pdf

It certainly looks like it should be suitable, so hopefully I can keep searching and find some way of verifying if the modules are indeed ok or if they're faulty. There were very cheap from eBay after all, so it would be good to know if they worked or not.

To be honest, tonight was just quick and dirty testing in the hope one of those circuits would work without any thought.

I'd keep going longer but it's MotoGP round 1 at 5am tomorrow morning, so wanna make sure I'm up in time for that.

Quick edit: Completely neglected to put the part number of the modules in here... it's IG-D1906E.

[Nessism]

Hey Pete,
You sure the screwdriver accurately simulates the rotor? I thought here was some sort of magnetic trigger but I could be wrong. You might want to try using the actual signal generator parts from the bike during your simulation.

[Matchless]

Pete,
As Ed says, maybe you are not generating a trigger pulse at the pickup.
You may want to test your modules first. The main stumbling block usually is the pulse from the pickup not triggering the HEI module. You also need to check that you have the 1.2 V bias present at the input as that lifts up the pulse a bit so that it can trigger the HEI as I understand it. You also need a bike battery for the coil not a lightweight power supply.

Try this simple method below with one module. It may also be possible to get a spark by pulsing the input with a penlight battery or two (1.5V or 3V) by flicking it briefly I have not done this, I must add, although it works on my OEM igniter.

Edit: I would suggest using better connectors and a substantial battery, as the current used to finally generate the spark is quite high and you need at least 5 or more Amps capability

[pete]

Thanks for the replies guys!

You both raise a good point about the signal generator. There is definitely what looks to be different material embedded in one side of the governor which I took to be a different sort of metal, but more than likely you're both right that this is a magnet.

I've been trying to turn the motor as little as possible as it hasn't had the first start yet, but perhaps I should just bite the bullet and see how it goes.

Also, Andre, I've seen that diagram somewhere before, from a CX500 I think? But yes I also found this last night:

http://www.mobiletron.com/images/Product/P_SubFile3/f3_596.pdf

Which gave me an idea for testing, which is pretty much what that CX500 diagram shows.

I agree on the connection comments, they're still dodgy, but I'm using the car battery for the power source at least.

I'll definitely double check the pull up voltage too, and will see if a 1.5V battery can be used instead of cranking the engine around.

Hopefully I'll get some more testing done tonight.

Thanks a bunch guys!

[Matchless]

Pete,
Lou also has a method of driving the HEI module with points on his website. I think he used a simple transistor which should be easy to set up for a test it it comes to that. It should also indicate an idea for the input polarity.

Triggering the pickup with a screwdriver means that you actually simulate moving the fixed magnet under the winding and thus the magnetic field with the screwdriver.
You can try swiping a fixed magnet past the coil as well.
A while back I was trying to test a bike with a CDI and could actually see a small "kick" with the multitester over the pickup and set to the lowest AC scale. It is not enough to take a reading, but it registered on the LCD display.

Good luck

[pete]

Thanks again Andre, I do remember seeing something about a points version on Lou's website but didn't look at the time.

You're right in that if I put my meter on the lowest setting (200 mV), when I flick my screwdriver past it I can see a flicker on the meter, but it's definitely no indication of a true measurement.

I'll get into it again tonight I hope and see if I can't test the modules and maybe get some success.

I need to be patient though... that's the hard bit for me!

[pete]

Well, I believe I successfully tested one of the ignition modules tonight, but I don't know if I actually made progress or not.

So, I started off with a basic hookup like the CX500 one above (or below depending on your post display preference).

Turning the crank did absolutely nothing as I expected.

So, I disconnected the signal generator plug and instead put a 1.5v AA battery from W to G, and when I removed it, I got a nice big fat spark.

So, this tells me that I need to set the signal generator up so that it's a bit more than 1.5v normally and when I crank, it should drop that voltage and fire off a spark.

Does that make sense at all? I realise I'm over simplifying there, but hopefully the basic premise is correct.

I then went back and tried the KZ550 wiring setup again with just the one coil, and unintentionally left the ignition turned on while hooking it up.

I discovered that when I connected the ground to the diodes in that setup, it fired off a spark.

So, there's two scenarios where I can get a spark, but neither of those involves the actual signal generator.

Now, I have checked the resistance of the signal generator coils previously and they tested ok, so I'm not suspecting a faulty signal generator, I just think I haven't gotten the bias right for the trigger yet.

My missing link I think is knowing what the actual signal generator output looks like in terms of amplitude, but of course my meter is far too slow to capture this.

I'll head back to Lou's site and see if I'm missing something that will trigger one of those light bulb moments for me...

[Matchless]

I think you are on track. Also check out the method Lou used for the Honda. He uses different biasing there. Lou is actually very helpful and you should be able to contact him on the Kawasaki forum.

I think once you have studied Lou's summary around the trigger pulse you may get it going yourself.

[pete]

Thanks for the encouragement Andre, it was certainly a nice change to see a spark fired via an ignition module finally tonight, even if it wasn't from the pickup coils themselves.

I need to do a lot more reading of Lou's site.

I started tonight and yeah, there's a few different options and ideas floating around there for sure.

There is definitely very different biasing with the Honda circuit, although that would mean modifying the wiring for mine if that was to be the case as there is a separate extra bias resistor for each pickup coil. If I need to do that then I need to do that of course...

I will keep researching and looking around.

Totally off topic... there's a relatively cheap pocket storage oscilloscope on eBay from Canada at the moment for about $US64 plus postage... food for thought! But I think I need to ban myself from eBay for a little while as I keep finding stuff that looks like I need it...

[pete]

Oh, just remembered I did some pricing research today on Boyer Bransden and Dyna S replacments.

The Boyer Bransden option I can get locally here in Brissie for about $240. Not cheap.

However, that's the cheapest option for something new.

The Dyna S model for the twins only comes with coils, meaning it's about $US310 on their website, so I don't even want to think about what that will translate to as a local price here. I know we have a dealer here in Brissie, and they won't sell internationally if there's a dealer here, so I would have to accept whatever insane markup they put on them.

Then of course we have the OEM modules which are $US560 or thereabouts on the Alpha Sports website.

So, I think my $9.95 each HEI modules are definitely worth persevering with...

[rustybronco]

My missing link I think is knowing what the actual signal generator output looks like in terms of amplitude, but of course my meter is far too slow to capture this.

Pete, I can measure it for you.

I don't think I'll be able to accomplish it this evening as the project list is long. tomorrow evening looks open.

[pete]

Mate that would be absolutely awesome if you could.

I've had an offer of a lend of a scope, but I can see it being a couple of weeks to get a weekend free to organise that.