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Does this NOS starter clutch look new?

KEITH KRAUSE

KEITH KRAUSE

Forum Guru
Past Site Supporter
TGSR Superstar
Charter Member
Need your help here guys. I've never had to change out a starter clutch so I'm relying on your experience.
I won this on E-bay from a seller who has always sold me good NOS stuff.
Before bidding, I asked him a question about what looked like wear marks in his pic. He said the clutch was new and 5 others he has have the same "spin" marks as this one. OK.
I got it today and I have a hard time believing the marks on this starter clutch are just from the factory and are normal.
Now to add to my suspicion, while checking the rollers I noticed that two of the pins that push against the rollers were weak. I took out the pins and sure enough, those two springs had broken ends still inside the hole. The other spring was fine and pushed against its roller correctly.
Now I'm trying to decide what I have here. A new clutch with bad springs or what?
From this pic and 1 to follow, have you seen these marks on new parts or are they obviously wear marks? On this side of the part you can see where the rollers go. See those roller marks? Could they exist if the parts are new? Does the factory test these parts and the marks could be there from that? There is also an area where the outer material has separated a little from the inner material. It's right next to where a hole is on the side that's part of the joining process of the two materials. Looks like they pressed it too hard or ? and the edge starts to come up. This is about 1" above the orange flash mark from my sons camera. I'm more concerned about the roller marks and the spin marks that I'll show in a minute.
On the other side, I'll show you some marks that look like spinning marks. That will be after I post this.
As for the springs, is it possible that they could break as I said just from sitting on a shelf? Do you think they could be packaged that way from the factory?
On the sellers side, the clutch looks like it's coated in that familiar, thin "machinist oil" I've seen on new motor parts. The gear associated with the clutch has no wear marks but is a separate part.
From this sellers reputation, I can't believe this is used but how do you explain the broken springs and these marks?
Thanks for taking the time to read this and any experience you guys have.



IMG_1793.jpg
 
Here's the other side and the obvious circular spin marks. Have you seen these marks on a new clutch?
Also, at about 4:00, there's a small gouge mark.

IMG_1791.jpg
 
I'd shoot him off an e-mail with these same pics and ask him for a refund or exchange with him paying the return shipping. Most good Ebay sellers will do this.
It doesn't look new to me or it was very abused where it was stored. Either way you deserve some action.
 
Hard call Keith, sure looks used to me. And looks like it was knocked around a bit. One thing that is hard to hide on a used part is the marks left by the 3 bolts that hold it on. These bolts will leave an impression.....Thats not what I would expect for a NOS part....What happened to your old one ???...BadBillyB
 
That's used, I got one with 26K's that looks better and the springs work too.

I guess it depends what NOS means; New On Shelf or Non Operating Spare
 
I f that's new, how bad will a really used one look. I'm with everyone else, it sure looks used.
 
Keith, its used. By the wear patern on the friction surface pic ,the broken springs were fitted in the holes at 9 & 5 oclock. There has been less force exerted on this part of the disc. Ask for a refund.
 
Used. Like Jake said, I've got one with over 20k miles that looks better.
 
You guys are great! I really appreciate the fast responses.
I feel kind of stupid now because the signs were right there. That's what faith in someone can do I guess. I just didn't think this guy would sell used parts as NOS and his listing info, as always, say "factory mint, genuine Suzuki"...I've never had a problem with him over at least 5 years. I will assume he'll give me a full refund and even pay return shipping. Still sucks though. I thought I had a nice NOS part if mine should fail someday, and at about 1/4 the price. He says he has 5 more NOS of these. All have the same marks that I questioned in his pics. When he said all 5 look like this one, I figured it was something caused by the maker. I couldn't come up with any excuse for the broken springs though.
Normally, I'd like to exchange it for one of the others he has, but it would appear that would just get me another used one.
I'm still trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm thinking that sometime in the past these "NOS" clutches got swapped for used/damaged, replaced in the factory box and then he came upon them?? I don't know.
I suppose if he could show me some good pics of another one that looks right I might say to send it, but then again, he did say they all have similar marks.
His name is Paul Miller, in Connecticut. His E-bay seller name is "Jrwdfa". I'm sure some of you have bought from him. I'll let you guys know if he doesn't fix this.
Thanks again for the help.:)
 
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BadBillyB said:
Hard call Keith, sure looks used to me. And looks like it was knocked around a bit. One thing that is hard to hide on a used part is the marks left by the 3 bolts that hold it on. These bolts will leave an impression.....Thats not what I would expect for a NOS part....What happened to your old one ???...BadBillyB
Click to expand...
Yeah. I looked again at where the 3 bolts seat and it does look like bolts have been in there. Not much bolt impression but I believe I see it.
Thanks for the reply Billy.
 
49er said:
Keith, its used. By the wear patern on the friction surface pic ,the broken springs were fitted in the holes at 9 & 5 oclock. There has been less force exerted on this part of the disc. Ask for a refund.
Click to expand...
Ah. You know more about these things than me, that's for sure.
After trying to dismiss the various wear marks (I really wanted this part to be good), I played with the rollers and could tell 2 of the pins weren't pushing them nearly enough. Sure enough, the springs inside had broken ends. I don't know why they apparently favor breaking at their ends but that's what these ones did. I knew then that I had a problem and this didn't fit with "a new part that's sat on a shelf". What the heck are people thinking to stick this crap back into a factory box and possible screw another guy down the road. I mean, there are people with zero experience with these and they would just go ahead and install it and watch it fail immediately after. I had enough knowledge to avoid that but I still let blind trust try to tell me that ONLY the springs were bad and maybe I'd tell him to send me 3 new springs. That's when I knew I should come here and ask for help from you guys.
I'm still thinking this guy may not be aware of these parts history and he believed them to be NOS. Many sellers don't really know what they're selling, they just sell it.
Thanks again for the help.:)

PS: Would you mind explaining how you could tell by the wear pattern which springs were broken? I never have had to work on these and I really don't understand how they operate. Might be a good chance for me and others to understand these clutches, if you or someone has the time.
 
Cripes Kieth, not only is that one way clutch used, it's TRASHED. What's up with all the prick punch marks on the face near where the springs ride? I too have been "new" scammed on Ebay, and it's such an aggravating feeling. You always want to assume your NEW part will arrive AS DESCRIBED all clean, in the box, and shiney.... sorry man. If he is unreasonable at refunding your $$cash$$ make sure you post up much negitiveity facts and details in the DEADBEAT section.
Rich
 
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I bet the springs were damage when some fool was banging it around or drop it when it was off the crank. Since they couldn't remove the magnet they most likely tried to force the springs, plunger and rollers back in the hole.
 
Keith,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I searched for photos in my Clymer GS850 and my Haynes GS 1000 manuals that I could use to explain how these clutches work on our bikes. It required some scanning and the photos and operation descriptions at best were vague.
Those rollers that are spring loaded wedge against a collar on a mating clutch gear. This gear is driven by the starter through a set of idler gears. When the starter is actuated, the clutch locks the rollers against the clutch collar and turns the engine over until it fires. At this point the crankshaft accelerates and throws the rollers clear of the drive collar and they stay that way until the engine is stopped. When the engine stops, the rollers lock in position again ready for the next start up. The fact that two of your springs were broken would have caused the clutch assy to chatter with an uneven load on the drive collar causing slippage/wear /eventual failure.
When ordering these units as a spare, it pays to replace the driven gear assy (with the clutch collar) as well the the unit that you have purchased. When they fail, they usually cause wear to the drive collar that must be repaired or replaced.
Follow the link below. It shows the starter clutch assy in detail, that is fitted to Honda V4's, about the same era as our GS's. The layouts and designs are almost identical.
http://users.metro2000.net/~cdc/magna/tech%20section%20and%20issues/starter%20clutch/starter%20clutch.htm

Ask for your refund, and fix the problem later down the track if it eventuates. You can then decide if you want to renew the complete Starter Clutch Assy or reface your drive collar and renew the unit that you have just purchased.
There is a GSR Kiwi member who races a GS 1000S. He has experienced many failures with his starter clutch assy. His story can be viewed on GS Owners Stories "Ripping & his 1979 GS 1000S".
Good luck.
Ian
 
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Hey Ian, thanks for that!:) I understand now.
My "NOS" clutch also came with the driven gear assy'.
To update anyone interested, it appears the driven gear was NOS but the starter clutch is used/damaged. The new gear contributed to my confusion when I first examined it. He did list it as a complete NOS starter clutch assy'.
I'm sending it back tomorrow after he finally answered my e-mails. Maybe he was busy?
When I first told him the NOS unit was used, he said to return it for exchange. I reminded him that he told me before that all 5 "NOS" clutches he has looked like the one sent to me, so I only want to exchange if they really are brand new.
He now says that 3 of those 5 are in a factory sealed bag and there's no doubt they're new and I'll get one of those. I hope so.
The thing is, after winning the clutch and knowing he had more, I told him I didn't want the one in the picture and would he please send another.
He didn't answer and when it arrived I could tell from close ups that it was the same "marked up" clutch in his pic that I had questioned being new.
All he had to do was grant my request. Instead, all this messaging/screwing around/returning. He's been selling a long time. How do they manage to make a simple transaction such a PITA?
Just out of curiosity I'll ask you guys; if the replacement is new and alls well that ends well, would you give him a negative feedback, neutral, or positive? I've never given anyone anything but positive and don't want to be on this guys sh-list because he'll probably be selling something else I'll want in the future.
 
Id give him a neutral with a scolding if he hasnt already given you feedback and if he has already given you a positive then Id give him a negative. Theres really no excuse for that crap. The higher the volume these ebay guys do the less effect a single neg has on his rating. So they care very little. Really in the end all they have to do is open a fresh seller account and start over. I got screwed hard once and opened up 5 buyers accounts just to win more of the guys stuff so I could slam his rating. He got severely ****ed but in the end just opened a new seller account.

By the way, that type of clutch is called an "over running clutch" or a "one way clutch" that type is is in each drum of an automatic transmission also to keep the engaged drum from spinning the other.
Just a tidbit.
 
I should have let your text sink in before I wrote. Ive been ripped on ebay a few times. More heavily than Id like to admit so my ire comes up quick.

I guess if alls well in the end and you may want more from him.... No feedback is probably the way I would go.
 
A third thought. The reason over running clutches come apart, springs break, etc. is from over revving (the springs are tensioned for the intended rpm range they will see) and also from quick changes in rpm up or down. Thats why real drag bikes dont have starters.
 
It sounds like he's doing good by you.. replacing it. IF the replacement is indeed NOS give him + feedback. reasoning is that He could have gotten a big box of parts & someone put their old one back in the box
 
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